Why does the FGC like stupid shit and what can we do about it? (My take on scene growth)

[Vashimus]

Just call them airdashers for consistency's sake, since you can make an argument for everything. KOF looks pretty damn anime to me, but doesn't play like GG, BB, or P4A. Skullgirls is American and has more stuff in common with anime games then something like SF.

[tataki]

I started calling them airdashers in recent years and it makes my life simpler.

SF,CVS, ABK ,Aquapazza, Shim Koihime Musou="Oldschool", "ground based"

This thread is kind of going in circles

Yeah, partly because people just want to lay off steam and not respond to the opening post, like you have just went into a completely unrelated topic with your post.

[Powerstar7]

Oh ok. I thought he was referring to more "anime" in terms of looks and artstyle

[SynikaL]

I'm pretty sure Marvel avoids the stigma because there's fewer reasons to associate Magneto and Storm with pedophilic cultures and tentacle rape. They're American made characters we know - not to mention Capcom's Street Fighter stable is pretty damn familiar too.

Coming up with some distinctive label centered around a mechanic is arbitrary. When you say "Airdasher" you may as well say "Anime" because for most people they're one-and-the-same, and generally, games with Air Dashing have anime art styles. There are people that will look for any excuse to otherize any community/game that doesn't play like a traditional footsie-based Street Fighter game. I don't know why some are intent on establishing these labels or typifying games in the genre.

Edited August 15, 2013 by SynikaL

[zerosoulreaver]

Marvel is anime, and so is SF. It's just people don't consider it because it's more Americanized. You can't deny it...Marvel has Shuma, MODOK, Raccoon, Phoenix Wright, Ammy, Morrigan. SF has Seth, Hakan, Sakura, Dan,.

I don't like the term "airdashers" because their are so many games that are anime oriented that don't use airdashes like DOA, KOF, SG, in fact SG should be called reset fighter 2013 lol.

My point is we shouldn't bother thinking this hard. The people using the term "anime" to describe most games barely even understand what they are saying anyway.

[Vashimus]

Skullgirls does have air dashing. The characters you play just lack one by design.

Dead or Alive is a 3D fighter so it's automatically in a separate category along with Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, and Tekken.

But yeah, I won't split hairs anymore.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Vashimus

[Luminos564]

Just gonna throw this out there, but maybe, just maybe, Capcom had a point when it stated that "there's a lot of fighting games out there". Granted they were wrong with using it as an excuse as to why their latest FG projects failed hard by their standards (see SFxT) but perhaps this is also one of the contributing factors as to why so many people do not delve deeper into their fighters. I mean, how would you manage the time necessary to get competitively good at one fighter, let alone 2 or 3 that are readily available for anybody? And that's not even including the time and attention needed to get another person on the "right" track to better understanding the FG(s) you know and love.

Using myself as an example, I love FGs, especially 2D fighters. I started out with Darkstalkers 1 on PSX and bought GGXX on a whim when I saw it at a local convenience. I was never good at FGs though and any attempt at trying to improve has result in failure after failure (not necessarily match losses mind you). And I'll be the first to admit that I have no real clue how to apply basic terms like oki, pressure, mix-up and so on. Oh sure, I can look their definitions up but it isn't like I can use them in a match. In order to improve and appreciate all of what a game can offer, I'd probably need someone readily available for guidance. This is also just me we're talking about. Other individuals would likely be a unique case on their own.

And that's where the problems lie I think. Somehow, I don't see anyone forming a school or program that deals with people wanting to improve in FGs. Admittedly, learning and practicing is up to the student but in order to facilitate that growth, a mentor/teacher is needed. Someone to bounce ideas off of, someone to give you encouragement, tough love, point you in the direction that will lead to eventual success all while maintaining the student's interest without them saying "Oh screw it, I am going to another (more flashy) FG". That is definitely asking a lot of any one mentor, who likely has a life outside the FG that they play. And the process becomes even larger once you realize that not every student is the same. One might get things down on the first 3 tries while another may need days, weeks or months. It becomes a pretty big project and I certainly can't tell you how a select few could manage the development of many, especially when the mentors have to manage their own time as well.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Luminos564

[Rhiya]

Mentors and rivals do miracles for a person's development. Fighting games aren't something you can understand outside of the context of playing the game. If you explain to someone what neutral, pressure, mixup are before they've even played a match, they'll get lost. Teaching someone fighting games is about making it easier for them to discover what these general things are, and making it easier for them to discover answers to what you do. Everyone learns best by doing, and, by extension, everyone will learn fighting games best by playing.

I guess, if I want to tie this back to the OP, I think more available knowledge is good -- but the knowledge needs to be passed from one player to another more than it needs to be on a wiki, at least for getting someone started on the genre.

[Luminos564]

I guess, if I want to tie this back to the OP, I think more available knowledge is good -- but the knowledge needs to be passed from one player to another more than it needs to be on a wiki, at least for getting someone started on the genre.

But that's the thing: not every potential mentor wants to pass on their knowledge to another. They may not even care about whether or not their one FGC grows in number and are complacent with the current competition available. Likewise, people that are great FG players may not necessarily be great at teaching another (there is a reason why it takes years for someone to get their teaching degree after all). I agree that a participating, player-to-player interactions are the key to bettering other players and expanding the fold, but the question is: how can these individuals start doing this? The FGC isn't exactly a collective hive-mind that can move in one direction. Heck, some of us are still at each other throats on which FG is "teh breast evar".

[Rhiya]

But that's the thing: not every potential mentor wants to pass on their knowledge to another. They may not even care about whether or not their one FGC grows in number and are complacent with the current competition available. Likewise, people that are great FG players may not necessarily be great at teaching another (there is a reason why it takes years for someone to get their teaching degree after all). I agree that a participating, player-to-player interactions are the key to bettering other players and expanding the fold, but the question is: how can these individuals start doing this? The FGC isn't exactly a collective hive-mind that can move in one direction. Heck, some of us are still at each other throats on which FG is "teh breast evar".

Doesn't matter if every player mentors someone, but what does matter is if the players who have both the knowledge and willingness to mentor do so. If you could get everyone with those traits to start helping inexperienced players, that'd be huge by itself. Most of the people like that probably aren't mentoring someone, have never considered doing so, or haven't found someone to mentor. The scene's quality would flourish if you got even half of those potential mentors paired with a mentee.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Dusk Thanatos

[Luminos564]

Doesn't matter if every player mentors someone, but what does matter is if the players who have both the knowledge and willingness to mentor do so. If you could get everyone with those traits to start helping inexperienced players, that'd be huge by itself. Most of the people like that probably aren't mentoring someone, have never considered doing so, or haven't found someone to mentor. The scene's quality would flourish if you got even half of those potential mentors paired with a mentee.

Except it hasn't happened. Something is clearly preventing the FGC from flourishing in this regard. I cannot speak for others, but in my case, the initial request for help was prevented by a pervading sense of, for lack of a better term, "shame". Perhaps that first step is the biggest hurdle. As you said: there are players who are more than willing to help newer and inexperienced players develop, but neither they nor the players in question seem to be "meeting up" as it were.

[GF9Returns]

Reading some of the posts in this thread has me baffled. I laugh at people who think Marvel is not anime but I just shake my head when people try to say GG isn't anime either. Do you even know what anime is? Do you think anime is only the 10 popular series that came in the US in the last decade and DBZ? I mean, seriously.

Instead of trying to distance ourselves from the "other anime games" so that ignorant people who like SF and think that doesn't mean they also like anime (when SF4 has Akuma go freaking Super Saiyan 2 in its latest version, electricity included) we should be simply explaining to them what anime actually is and why every Japanese game is VERY anime in a ton of ways. Instead of trying to set ourselves apart and join the ignorant ones, we should be fostering information.

I watched this marvel stream once; Yipes was calling xfactor "kaioken". How? How is marvel perceived non-anime when the guy makes a DBZ reference for its basic mechanic in an ACCEPTED way? How does this make sense? Why is kaioken not-anime but something with the word "kawaii" suddenly makes people call things “weeaboo”, "gay" or whatever they do?

Just break down things in informative ways, explain that hadou in hadouken is the word for aura, which is what that colorful fire around the people of DBZ, Akuma, Evil Ryu, and Oni is, that the "fireballs" are not actually fire at all! Rather, they’re mental energy or “ki”, that the aura of a person around their body is heightened by that energy coursing through their body rapidly, which is what makes chars have spiky hair in many things.

Explain everything in every commonly perceived non-anime game to show just how anime it is. If you make people realize they had been playing and ENJOYING an anime game all along they'd be much more likely to join other anime games too. That's the constructive and positive way to go about this. That’s the proud and unashamed way. People shouldn't try to mask or hide how anime something like GG is. People shouldn't feel ashamed or embarrassed of that facet of the game. They shouldn't try to deny it to blend in with or attract the “popular crowd”. All this closet-anime-fandom which is being propagated here is just annoying.

If you like SF, GG, Marvel 3, any Japanese-made game with 2D art and Japanese-style thematic elements such as the shouting of moves as one performs them or Japanese characters/brush stroke flourishes in moves (such as SF4’s focus attack), you like anime. You may not like anime-aesthetics, that's a valid preference, but anime is a WHOLE LOT more than that and you better start comprehending it more since knowing oneself is important and a good way of achieving that is to know everything there is to be known about the things that you like, as they make up who you actually will end up being.

While I admit that it's kinda effed up that people call some "anime" fighting games "weaboo crap" and odd that most people don't even recognize ASW, people also gotta understand that's just the way it is. Other people (including myself) just don't look at SF as an "anime" game, they just look at a game that changed our life and rocked their childhood. Same goes for DBZ, people don't look at it as an anime, they look at it as a "cartoon" that changed they lives(and is STILL going strong around the world just like Street Fighter and MK).

I like anime but I gotta be honest, some of them are...just too weird and have too much "unusual style" and that's why some people look down on GG and BB. Now I'm not saying I do cuz I love both of the series.

Incredibly zany powers and excessively bright colors, the entire Capcom side, magic series-style combos, combos that are inherently flashy and last long periods of time, other general airdasher mechanics, and I'm sure the list could go on.

From what I see, Marvel games have everything your typical "anime" game has, but takes it to broken, yet fun extremes. It just tends to avoid an anime stigma because it's A) a Capcom game, and B) half filled with American-style characters and half filled with characters from (generally) loved Capcom games.

I think it's like a comic-based game, based on some winning animations, along with loading in MvC3. It ain't anime.

Edited August 15, 2013 by GF9Returns

[Chaoschao222]

I think it's like a comic-based game, based on some winning animations, along with loading in MvC3. It ain't anime.

Dunno why that's directed at me when my post was talking more about the 'innards' of games labeled as "anime" rather than the style itself (outside of the Capcom-side thing).

But with characters like Morrigan, Phoenix Wright, Dante, and, like I said, pretty much all of the Capcom side, it's still hella anime, even if you're strictly looking at it design-wise.

Unless this doesn't seem anime to you.

[Rhiya]

I think it's like a comic-based game, based on some winning animations, along with loading in MvC3. It ain't anime.

And manga are comics. ^_^

In all seriousness, it's the mechanics. Marvel shares far more mechanics with games like BB/GG/MB than it does with SF, and it even takes some of the crazy stuff in BB/GG/MB to crazier extremes. If you thought Litchi combos were long, how about infinites? There's plenty of characters with unconventional movement options, like flight and airdashing. MvC3 is a four button game, like most anime games, and noticeably unlike SF. The list goes on.

[GF9Returns]

Dunno why that's directed at me when my post was talking more about the 'innards' of games labeled as "anime" rather than the style itself (outside of the Capcom-side thing).

But with characters like Morrigan, Phoenix Wright, Dante, and, like I said, pretty much all of the Capcom side, it's still hella anime, even if you're strictly looking at it design-wise.

Unless this doesn't seem anime to you.

Nah you right, my mistake. It's half-comic half-anime, though I really don't know why some people are saying it's 100% anime when it's 50%.

And manga are comics. ^_^

In all seriousness, it's the mechanics. Marvel shares far more mechanics with games like BB/GG/MB than it does with SF, and it even takes some of the crazy stuff in BB/GG/MB to crazier extremes. If you thought Litchi combos were long, how about infinites? There's plenty of characters with unconventional movement options, like flight and airdashing. MvC3 is a four button game, like most anime games, and noticeably unlike SF. The list goes on.

I'm talking about the style. It may got some crazy shit in it but the Marvel characters ain't anime nor have the "kuwaii" traits.

Edited August 15, 2013 by GF9Returns

[Luminos564]

Unless this doesn't seem anime to you.

Gaaaahhh! What black-hearted mistress of Satan unleashed this hideous creature on the Earth? *Shudders* It's like she's trying to suck out my soul through those gigantic, dead polygon eyes and trap it within that gel candy she calls hair.

[Rhiya]

For better or worse, that's what people mean when they say "anime game." It's not about the artstyle. It's about the gameplay commonly associated with that artstyle.

[Dreiko]

While I admit that it's kinda effed up that people call some "anime" fighting games "weaboo crap" and odd that most people don't even recognize ASW, people also gotta understand that's just the way it is. Other people (including myself) just don't look at SF as an "anime" game, they just look at a game that changed our life and rocked their childhood. Same goes for DBZ, people don't look at it as an anime, they look at it as a "cartoon" that changed they lives(and is STILL going strong around the world just like Street Fighter and MK).

I like anime but I gotta be honest, some of them are...just too weird and have too much "unusual style" and that's why some people look down on GG and BB. Now I'm not saying I do cuz I love both of the series.

Here's the thing, anime is not just "one thing". Anime, like "movies", have VARIOUS styles. Just because you like transformers movies it doesn't mean you won't find French 20s movies weird. Just because some of it is weird according to your personal view, that alone is not enough to color the ENTIRE medium.

If someone told you they think Transformers is "messed up" because they saw A Serbian Film, you'd call them an ignorant idiot and all the justification in the world won't change this.

You talk as if you're alone in this, as if only you and people who think the same thing you do watched DBZ and played SF. As if this opinion is the default one. I'm sorry to say but that's fucked right up.

I did those things too, only, unlike others, I actually researched those things that "changed my life" (which is the logical thing to do) and found what they ACTUALLY are. Instead of taking what the dubbing and localization firms sold me as marketing cause they figured they'd make more money by misrepresenting things, I actually looked into what I liked so much! How about that!

I'm sorry I sound somewhat aggressive but to other-ize the people who actually like what you too like enough to look into it and find its true identity, then upon that finding to continue pursuing that passion which you claim to share but for some reason never actually pursued at all, is truly stupid and ignorant and I can't stop looking down on somebody who'd do that.

"Just the way it is" is bullshit. Slavery was just the way things were for a long while too. Doesn't mean it's good or that it should go unchanged. If you agree that it's messed up for things to be like this, if you think it's unfair, speak the fuck up when someone says something ignorant and correct the idiot into knowledge!

Edited August 15, 2013 by Dreiko

[Pichy]

For better or worse, that's what people mean when they say "anime game." It's not about the artstyle. It's about the gameplay commonly associated with that artstyle.

"Anime game" is a hella nebulous phrase that can (and often does) mean completely different things from conversation to conversation. I've always been fond of "Airdash Fighter" to refer to games inspired by Vampire/GG. I'd call them "Airdash 'n Gatling Games" but I can't even think of a game that has the former without also having chains.

Anyway, spend more time playing games and less time complaining on the internet that people aren't playing your game. I've been part of my local scene for years and it's through making friends, respecting their games and growing skillsets together that we've started getting SF4 players into GG in the last few months. We got them interested by continuing to bring the game and play it at meetups periodically over a long time, not by smacking them over the head with rants about how it's the best for a week, then sulking when SF4 went back on half the monitors. Show some respect and it'll be paid back in kind.

Also people might think the game looks cooler if you've learned cool tricks to show in the first place.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Pichy

[Suzaku]

I just want you guys to know that you're having a stupid argument. "Anime" or "comic" is a pretty useless label. Most 2D fighters have historically looked "anime" by sheer virtue of being 2D. Darkstalkers, Street Fighter Alpha, and Marvel vs Capcom all had the exact same art style and dramatically different gameplay conventions.

Guilty Gear, BlazBlue and, yes, Marvel vs Capcom, hell, even Rival Schools for that matter, are all on the same end of the fighting game spectrum. What I'd call the "over-the-top" end. You could maybe define it as games where a super move version of a fireball becomes a full-screen laser beam, or games where a majority of the characters can double jump and air dash by default.

In other words, games where you can do insanely cool shit without a lot of effort.

Opposite end of the spectrum you have super-technical fighters, or rather Virtua Fighter, where the cool shit looks like normal martial arts yet still requires a high degree of precision and dexterity to pull off.

You could put Street Fighter and King of Fighters in the middle as examples the average, traditional fighting game. Which is to say, fighting games where you can throw fireballs and do super moves, and, maybe if you're playing as a ninja, you can do wall jumps.

I'd say the average weapon-based fighter is going to fall somewhere between over-the-top and traditional, so there you've got Samurai Showdown and Soul Calibur and the like. And then closer to over-the-top you have maybe Darkstalkers and Jojo and the like, which have more of the over-the-top flavor but retain more of the traditional technical skill.

And then, in my own opinion, there's another breed of fighting games I'd categorize as a completely different genre, which is the fighter/platformer hybrid. Stuff like Smash Bros., the Narutimate series, Dissidia Final Fantasy, the DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi games, etc. Which is to say, games that feel more like platformers-turned-competitive. Cart racers and MOBAs are similar spinoffs of the racing and tactical strategy genres.

Now, an average gamer, which is to say someone who only dabbles into fighting games, is probably going to vary in proficiency from "button-masher" to "can pull off specials, supers, and combos for their favorite character when playing friends and the CPU."

The average gamer is gonna play in the shallow end, maybe dabble in the deep end if they're really taken with the game. They may never go online, they may never even play with another person. If they do play with another person, it'll probably be someone with a similar skill level.

To go beyond that, the person has to either be really into the specific game, want a deeper experience, or a greater competitive challenge. And this is going to be true of any sort of competitive game, from Scrabble and Chess to World of Warcraft, Call of Duty, and Street Fighter.

Almost by definition, the fighting game community is going to cater to that latter group of people seeking a competitive experience, and to a lesser extent people who are just really into whatever game, for more 'superficial' reasons like the art, music, and story.

A forum like Dustloop is ultimately going to attract either people who want to talk about strategy (the majority) or people who want to talk about art, music, or story (the minority). If you're to the point of joining a community dedicated to a single game or franchise, you're already in pretty deep. And those people should be welcomed.

In this day and age, I think the onus lies more with the developers to provide a robust matchmaking service that will allow people of different skill levels to play online with people of similar skill levels, and have an enjoyable experience. Not everyone in a fighting game community needs to be technically skilled, but they do need to be having fun.

[Rhiya]

It's a stupid label, but it's one that gets tossed around like candy in Willa Wonka's factory. May as well know what people do and don't mean when they say it, or if -no one- means the same thing when they say it.

[GF9Returns]

Here's the thing, anime is not just "one thing". Anime, like "movies", have VARIOUS styles. Just because you like transformers movies it doesn't mean you won't find French 20s movies weird. Just because some of it is weird according to your personal view, that alone is not enough to color the ENTIRE medium.

If someone told you they think Transformers is "messed up" because they saw A Serbian Film, you'd call them an ignorant idiot and all the justification in the world won't change this.

You talk as if you're alone in this, as if only you and people who think the same thing you do watched DBZ and played SF. As if this opinion is the default one. I'm sorry to say but that's fucked right up.

I did those things too, only, unlike others, I actually researched those things that "changed my life" (which is the logical thing to do) and found what they ACTUALLY are. Instead of taking what the dubbing and localization firms sold me as marketing cause they figured they'd make more money by misrepresenting things, I actually looked into what I liked so much! How about that!

I'm sorry I sound somewhat aggressive but to other-ize the people who actually like what you too like enough to look into it and find its true identity, then upon that finding to continue pursuing that passion which you claim to share but for some reason never actually pursued at all, is truly stupid and ignorant and I can't stop looking down on somebody who'd do that.

"Just the way it is" is bullshit. Slavery was just the way things were for a long while too. Doesn't mean it's good or that it should go unchanged. If you agree that it's messed up for things to be like this, if you think it's unfair, speak the fuck up when someone says something ignorant and correct the idiot into knowledge!

I'm not saying "if you like x over y, then you a retard", like what you wanna like. I'm just basically asking WHY are you guys so shocked about why the "scene" is that way it is now. I mean GG and BB take a hell of a lot more time to learn some characters than MvC, so there, going with the one that's easy. Now as for the anime part, yes, I know DBZ is an anime but I...JUST don't look at it that way, dunno why, but I just don't since it was one of the shows that made my childhood golden, so I just call it "a cartoon that changed my life". DBZ and other anime like Yu Yu Hakusho, Ruroni Kenshin, etc. get well respected cuz they got spark and no cutsey "kuwaaiiiii" crap as other animes like Naruto, One Piece(once in a while), Bleach, etc. don't much (though One Piece is well respected too). Though like I said again, I don't judge what people like, all I'm trying to do is stating my vision as of seeing why I THINK people respect "real deal" anime and "real deal" fighting games that have the "anime" style.

And I once tried to tell "them" that SF is like anime too, but it's useless, they just wanna call it a non-anime style game, so I gave up.

Edited August 15, 2013 by GF9Returns

[00Bubbles00]

Basically, these "Anime" haters just don't like female characters in their games. Especially the ones with big eyes and big heads. These people think that anime with men and muscles is not anime....

They won't admit this truth because it implies something about them. Hence they just say they hate "anime" under their own definition of it.

Its a similar crowd to those COD players who are moaning and groaning now that they are adding female character multiplayer models to Ghosts.

[Rhiya]

I think the problem is more people's thinking "anime=bad," despite people having had positive reactions to things that are undoubtedly anime. It's basically a case of people being closed-minded about something when there's a counterexample to their mentality they've already accepted. I may be wrong, but I think that's the gist of what he finds infuriating.

Something I find infuriating is the preconception that anime is essentially a genre by itself, when it's a sub-medium of film and television. All "anime" says about a show is that it was produced in Japan, and it's animated. Says nothing about the artstyle (see Panty and Stocking) or the genre (see, well, anything you'd like). Saying you hate one anime comedy so you won't watch any is like saying you hate Scrubs so you won't watch Arrested Development. Makes no sense.

[zerosoulreaver]

I still hate how people use the term "anime". If you play fighters long enough you start to see they are pretty similar across the board and are always over the top (isn't that the reason we play them?). To me it's like playing games and calling everyone else a "nerd". It is a very pointless argument to make. Almost all fighting games are anime/cartoon influenced, if you think not you are fooling yourself.

In the end, I'm sick of people alienating themselves and others just to look cool. I mean their is nothing to look cool about anyway...we are all on the same freakin level. The bickering will end when people stop getting butthurt over dumb name calling that has been going on for ages.