Why does the FGC like stupid shit and what can we do about it? (My take on scene growth)

[00Bubbles00]

One huge thing I think is that to get good at GG or BB, you have to hit the training room to learn the combos. Most casuals are not ready to do this. With games like SF, the BnBs are so short and easy to remember that you can just practice them on the fly playing against other people.

[Agni]

Your point would valid...if gatlings didn't exist. A>B>C>Special combos may be simple, but they can be learned quickly for a beginner (took me only a few minutes) until they get the hang of doing simple combos before they go for actual BnB's and stuff like that. Hell most complex combos are elaborations of that basic formula anyway.

[Rhiya]

If you can hit buttons into sweep, you can perform a basic combo with pretty much anyone in GG that'll end in knockdown.

That's more than I can say for SF.

[00Bubbles00]

Yes, but a basic gatling combo is really only equivalent to a 2-hit combo in SF in terms of relative damage.

[InWithTheAshes]

But they still knock down. Which is an even larger reward in Guilty than it is in most other fighting games, and concerning BB, at least oki is generally better than within SF etc. .

[reaVer]

PS: I still remember reaVer did not get along very well with the SF players on the dutch FGC forums back in the day. Funny to see him making a point for them now, here

I still dislike them. But it never has been for their poor choice of games. If someone enjoys playing SF4 or enjoys playing MvC3, let them. The games are not that bad, even if they have elements I really don't like. My character choice in GG represents this quite well: I don't like zoning, I think it's boring, tedious and adds almost no depth to the game. SF promotes this mechanic A LOT however and gives defensive players a strong advantage. MVC3 I personally don't like because the round consists of 3 mixups and 3 characters gone that same instance. It might be something I could get used to, but then... there's Guilty Gear!

I dislike them because they try their elitist bullshit on me. They have repeatedly said that GG has a small playerbase and that I therefore sucked. No matter what tournament results I brought home, it was always about other people not playing the game. Of course, I've had one of the best laughs in life when these players came back from Canada Cup and didn't even get ranked in top32 and that they got similar results in the last EVO they went to is just the icing on the cake. Just now that their communities have started to shrink considerably is where their attitudes have changed. Now; if all SF and MvC players in every country are like what I just mentioned, then yes, we can honestly say that they are dumbasses. That however should mean that we wouldn't want them playing GG either because they will repel newer players that wish to enjoy the game.

Now if someone wanted to play GG, and really wants to get good. You shouldn't tell him what to do, nor should you tell him how to win. You can give him tips, but you can't hold it against him if he doesn't listen. It's his character and it's his way of enjoying the game. Kusoru's play style in GG is and has always been LEGITIMATE. It is how he enjoys the game and he's getting decent results with it as well. The same way I'm quite a bit of unsafe things with my Order Sol, yet I've made these things work for me. The same way a new player has to look for stuff that works for him or stuff that he can make work for him. If he enjoys playing a 50/50 game with just VV/WT with Sol, LET HIM. If he does it well, you still have a challenge and you can still get better. And if anyone wonders why I'm doing gunblaze after dustlooping Slayer... The guy I practiced against teched with air super quite often.

[qwerty]

all of this is in addition to your ground game. if you can remain aware of your neutral options wherever you are on the screen, awesome! but to expect a beginner to process or intuit all this shit, all the possible interactions that result from having highly rewarding and relatively safer air options, is asking for a lot imo.

I might be inclined to agree that it's too much to ask of beginners, except that Marvel 3 is the second most played fighting game in the US. A decent Marvel 3 player can easily keep up with the pace of Guilty Gear, if you ask me. For someone like that, learning the game is less a matter of fundamentals and more a matter of learning a character and the game's mechanics. It doesn't take very long for most (dedicated) people to get decent at Marvel 3, nor should it take that long to get to intermediate level Guilty Gear, either.

Granted, it's easy to become a strong player, and then in hindsight claim that a game isn't that hard to learn, but I'd like to think I can still remember what it was like to first learn the game. It was difficult, and it took a long time for me to get to a level where I could even be considered competitive on a local scale. There were a lot of reasons why I feel it took so long, and one of them you briefly touched upon: a lot of players don't help. But the reasons why those players don't help is where this discussion gets interesting, and quite off topic from this thread (which is somehow still alive).

[Destin]

I might be inclined to agree that it's too much to ask of beginners, except that Marvel 3 is the second most played fighting game in the US. A decent Marvel 3 player can easily keep up with the pace of Guilty Gear, if you ask me. For someone like that, learning the game is less a matter of fundamentals and more a matter of learning a character and the game's mechanics. It doesn't take very long for most (dedicated) people to get decent at Marvel 3, nor should it take that long to get to intermediate level Guilty Gear, either.

Granted, it's easy to become a strong player, and then in hindsight claim that a game isn't that hard to learn, but I'd like to think I can still remember what it was like to first learn the game. It was difficult, and it took a long time for me to get to a level where I could even be considered competitive on a local scale. There were a lot of reasons why I feel it took so long, and one of them you briefly touched upon: a lot of players don't help. But the reasons why those players don't help is where this discussion gets interesting, and quite off topic from this thread (which is somehow still alive).

Guilty gear is harder and better than all the new fighting games, no question. A decent MvC3 player will not be able to easily pick up gg to the intermediate level, I know because I try to teach decent MvC3 players GG and they can barely move. I have taught ALOT of players guilty gear as well, so I am no slouch in the teaching department. They need to REALLY want to learn, and that's about it. Sadly there is no substitute.

[reaVer]

I might be inclined to agree that it's too much to ask of beginners, except that Marvel 3 is the second most played fighting game in the US. A decent Marvel 3 player can easily keep up with the pace of Guilty Gear, if you ask me. For someone like that, learning the game is less a matter of fundamentals and more a matter of learning a character and the game's mechanics. It doesn't take very long for most (dedicated) people to get decent at Marvel 3, nor should it take that long to get to intermediate level Guilty Gear, either.

Granted, it's easy to become a strong player, and then in hindsight claim that a game isn't that hard to learn, but I'd like to think I can still remember what it was like to first learn the game. It was difficult, and it took a long time for me to get to a level where I could even be considered competitive on a local scale. There were a lot of reasons why I feel it took so long, and one of them you briefly touched upon: a lot of players don't help. But the reasons why those players don't help is where this discussion gets interesting, and quite off topic from this thread (which is somehow still alive).

The game isn't that hard to learn. The problem is that we tend to make things more difficult than they have to be. Thy shall not Storm Viper! Thy shall not Grand Viper! Thy shall not Riot Stomp! They shall not do this, do that, blablablabla. Players always do it wrong and when they go like "but this Japanese guy gets away with it!" the response is "But they make it work".

When people understand that there are no real rules and that their abilities are only hampered by their imagination, then they can get somewhere and get somewhere fast. All of a sudden all the supposedly random crap becomes available, they can focus on beating things you are doing and work for example on a defensive pattern that benefits them. All of a sudden the nuances start to matter: Yes, SV is punishable, but if I do it in this situation, he's caught of guard and cannot respond to punish even if he blocks it. If I GV from across the screen, it would look stupid, but he's not going anywhere when spamming fireballs. That sort of stuff can build and build. And it maintains really simple principles.

[qwerty]

snip

Perhaps our definition of decent differs, or perhaps I give people too much credit. Even so, I've seen people with backgrounds in other games (namely Marvel) pick up GG with relative ease. Not that they become what I would call a strong player overnight, but they learn the game well enough in a short amount of time that it puts my early days of GG to shame. I have, also, noticed a tendency for these same players to hit a wall after their initial progression. This is probably due to them allowing their backgrounds in other games carry them to that point, so I guess it's a double edged sword.

snip

While I do agree with your overall point, I also think that focusing on gimmicks at lower levels of play tends to foster an inherently gimmicky playstyle. Which, for a player who has already grasped how the game works, isn't a bad thing at all. But for a player who is starting from a clean slate, it's best to have them focus on the basics.

Again, that's not to say that gimmicky play doesn't have its time and place, but the early stages of learning how to play fighting games is not one of them.

[mAc Chaos]

There were a lot of reasons why I feel it took so long, and one of them you briefly touched upon: a lot of players don't help. But the reasons why those players don't help is where this discussion gets interesting, and quite off topic from this thread (which is somehow still alive).

I'm curious to hear what you think it is. It's related. I mean, it is about the growth of the community.

[redsilversnake]

In terms of execution, at least, GG's difficulty really is overstated. Aside from FRCs and Slashback, there's nothing about it that's necessarily any harder than other FGs. The difficulty comes from more abstract things, like meter management and defense. I would say making that distinction is important.

Players always do it wrong and when they go like "but this Japanese guy gets away with it!" the response is "But they make it work".

The problem with this isn't that the response is wrong, but that it's not made clear why you shouldn't make too large of an attempt to emulate the play you see in videos. There's nothing inherently wrong with learning a character's basics by watching good players, but when you mindlessly copy specific things, chances are you won't be using those specific things at opportune times. Because it's not just that a Japanese player makes something work, but that he makes it work through certain factors that this newer player isn't taking into account.

[Rhiya]

Yes, but a basic gatling combo is really only equivalent to a 2-hit combo in SF in terms of relative damage.

Knockdown's importance can't be overstated.

Sure, you might not get much damage, but knockdown is the ability to get that damage over and over again from a favorable position.

[SuperJ]

@reaver: it's true fighting games, particularly GG, usually can't be broken down to "follow these simple steps/rules." a so-called intermediate player might tell you "never ever jump forward in SF." this behavior is not as obviously exploitable as "always jump when you get the chance", but both are equally crippling mindsets in a genre that demands situational awareness and calculated risks.

but there's the rub. if fighting game mastery cannot be gained by purchasing a dvd and following simple steps and rules, how is it attained? as you've hinted and as far as i can tell it is, above all, iterative logic. it builds upon itself. it's a potentially infinite series of "X doesn't work because Y, therefore Z."

no one gains such a set of reactions overnight; no one reaches the pinnacle in years. in particular, situational reactions are more difficult than simple reactions and it is easier to freeze in indecision or react in panic. even if out of 30 choices, only 2 or 3 are correct or viable, how does a beginner deduce this? it's true you can "teach" someone by not explictly teaching him. maybe after the beatdowns, if he's talented, he'll indeed figure it out. if this someone exists in your community you should thank your lucky stars! but, and i am not calling you out, if someone's method of teaching consists of telling others to just "figure it out", that person has failed as a teacher. you should not override someone's perspective with your own, but you can most definitely share it! you shouldn't x-copy what daigo appears to be doing, but it certainly doesn't hurt to know what's going on in his head. it almost always helps. it's the difference between telling someone the answer to a puzzle and showing how you can arrive to it.

in the end the only thing that matters are results so yes, kusoru's style is not wrong, your style is not wrong, my style is not wrong. i think we're in agreement that the sort of players who parrot things like "always never do these moves" even when they lose to those moves are the sort that dismisses perspective, hampers creativity, and stunts the growth of their own scene (i personally feel this is a huge problem in the fgc). but why not save others the trouble of reinventing the wheel? why assume that every player is able to think "obviously this didn't work because my opponent responds like that, so i'll try this instead" and that from the get go he instinctively knows what to try or has a high abuse threshold? addiction to spoon-feeding is a real risk, and in this sense you can determine if someone is not cut out for fighting games, but then again so is quitting because of lack of guidance and unless you're playing with terrible human beings the former isn't necessarily a bad or irreparable outcome

which brings me to my final point. from my experience beginners need a foundation that works, otherwise they quit from frustration (GG is a frustrating game). i feel it is the responsibility of the teacher to show the beginner what works. it doesn't have to, nor should it be the one way, but it can be an X from which the Y's and Z's follow. which brings me to neutral game...

@qwerty: it's true marvel players worth their salt should easily keep up with GG's pace. it's also interesting you notice these players often plateauing. so there must be some obstacle or something that's halting their progress. again, i feel that it must be related to understanding of neutral and that this problem extends to all anime games, but if you believe there's another root cause i wouldn't mind hearing it.

to ground this conversation back on the growth of the anime scene at large, bbcp is super fun and there is a massive opportunity when the game comes stateside. so i guess this is addressed to everybody but does BB, as an anime game, suffer the same accessibility stigmas as GG? i'm late to the party so i dunno. if so, whatever reasons you cite for GG not actually being that hard should also apply to BB and if not, it'd still be worthwhile for those looking at GG specifically.

@others: if a game has air combos, then that game's combos are automatically more difficult than street fighter combos. and it's not like you have to use links in street fighter because if we're talking optimized damage, especially off random confirms, then anime games are unquestionably harder, no contest. imo

[reaVer]

Cross reply time!

Well, you can't just go "figure it out" and expect stuff to work, that is true. But there's different teaching methods that can be applied:

You can tell the player 'the way' of playing this game, which hampers his abilities in the long run(as it did mine mind you!).

You can just explain him all the techniques out there, all the mixups, etc etc and his head will spin.

Or, which is what I do, is just play, give a few tips and explicitly warn if he's doing something stupid.

While the last seems like throwing a person in the abyss, the majority of the feedback comes from his actions directly. He starts to figure out "he's having trouble with his" "that goes unpunished" and before you know it you take the damage you just dealt to him because he now supers with Slayer after teching while you were trying to throw him. So in short, he starts to learn the language of the game. And while I've thought "that guy is doing everything wrong!", after watching several vids I found out he's doing stuff correctly!

As you read earlier, it is an iterative learning process going at the pace of the 'victim' which also brings me to qwerty's response. Gimmicks themselves is not necessarily something you want to base your play style around. But, at the same time, gimmicks are a start towards mixups. For example, you first learn stuff like 2P2K5D with OS and when he starts blocking that you're gonna go like "So now what?" Then you would attempt 2P2K2D and if the opponent is a fuzzy guarder, that gets blocked too. Then when the gears spin a little harder you're going to consider something as silly as 2P2KGB to find out it works. That is how simple things starting like a gimmick can result into mixups that are sometimes really unexpected and quite powerful.

And reinventing the wheel does seem a waste of time, but for players it's important to do so, so it sticks within their memory longer. They can more easily apply their own inventions than other's techniques.

[destruction_adv]

In terms of execution, at least, GG's difficulty really is overstated. Aside from FRCs and Slashback, there's nothing about it that's necessarily any harder than other FGs. The difficulty comes from more abstract things, like meter management and defense. I would say making that distinction is important.

I think this is a good point (though I do think some of the characters really do have really hard execution).

[Dreiko]

to ground this conversation back on the growth of the anime scene at large, bbcp is super fun and there is a massive opportunity when the game comes stateside. so i guess this is addressed to everybody but does BB, as an anime game, suffer the same accessibility stigmas as GG? i'm late to the party so i dunno. if so, whatever reasons you cite for GG not actually being that hard should also apply to BB and if not, it'd still be worthwhile for those looking at GG specifically.

I think it's not quite as bad as GGs stigma but it's still kinda there. People see Rachel or Carl do things and get intimidated. On the other hand, BB has brought a lot of anime fans into fighting games, people who'd just gotten the game cause of the story who then stuck with it and ended up learning it, so I believe it has done its share, whatever small one it may be.

My local scene has collectively imported CP actually and with it there was a rise in participation. People who'd quit back in CS1-2 times returning back to it, people who had been playing marvel and SF for this time. At the same time, I see these people kinda hampered by their being used to lenient games like marvel so some problems arise due to it. A prime example would be 623 inputs being overwritten by 236 inputs in CP. People used to doing 623 as 6236 are getting 236s and are messing up and become frustrated. Also, I feel the way mvc3 works in enabling unsafe approaches being safe through application of assists has hampered these players ability to rushdown assist-less and be safe while doing so, which I think more time with the game will fix. I also see things such as people waking up mashing throws, thinking they work like in marvel. If you know BB you know how weak throws are. It's just...not gonna work to do wakeup grab as a reversal. At the same time, I feel kinda hesitant in correcting these people too much. I will give one tip here and there and if they don't do it or don't ask for more, I'll kinda stop and let them do what they do. The ones who wanna improve, ultimately, will ask me for advice, so while my enthusiasm may be useful, all it can do for some people I fear is scare them off.

I think this is kinda what people here (the ones complaining about the kinds of players I'm speaking about) are frustrated about. They have all this positive energy which simply isn't being appreciated or allowed to do the good it potentially could and seeing this huge wasted opportunity is understandably frustrating.

On the first day they released the BBCP patch (yesterday) that added the Torifune Beginner Lobby, there were a lot more people logged on playing, even though it was a week day. I thought this highlights well how the amount of pros and vets at BB are scaring off the noobs... at least from playing online...

And all these people there are actually freaking good lol. I went there to try using brand new characters and I expected to have to hold back to not seem like I was preying on beginners but I barely won most of the time and lost a few too. Oh and, all of them were Japanese. No westerners who own this game yet would really go there (unless they're using chars they've never used before like I was, I guess, lol) so who knows how that lobby will be come US release.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Dreiko