Why does the FGC like stupid shit and what can we do about it? (My take on scene growth)

[tataki]

Important edit:

 

Half a year ago, I wrote this thread during a very emotional, impuslive state of mind. If my sencere concerns sound like a negative dismissal of other people, then I apologize as it was not my intenention at all. I'm a very passionate person and I tend to act as such, which is also my source of motivation to help improve the scene of fighting games.

 

I took some time away to think about this issue and what can I do in practical terms, i.e. a positive approach instead of a negative one. I pondered and worked at it for months and you can now see the end result in my new series, Airdash Academy.

 

My apologies again if I've hurt anyone.

 

 

 

The problem isn't that some games are more popular than others, but that people like fighting games for all the wrong reasons. ("Wrong" in the way I see it)

Take MVC3 for example:

For what it's worth, some people are capable of appreciating the high level nuances of the game. e.g. Timing of assist calling and predicting it, vector control, team dynamics, long term decision making in a match etc. etc.

People like Viscant and Devil Jin 01 are prime examples of this. But the vast majority of people who "love mahvel" don't understand any of that stuff. Their understanding of the game is shallow, which means that their relationship with the game is shallow. In fact, their relationship with the game is so lacking that a lot of them would rather watch it than play it. When talking about videogames, in my opinion, as a player, that's an equivalent of a failure.

So what would happen if people would be able to see what Viscant sees in the game? Some will like MVC3 even more, and will play it more, and some will discover that a different game caters better to their taste and start playing that. Everybody wins.

I strongly believe that most of the people in the "FGC" don't even have a "taste" because they don't have the understanding to grasp that much more beyond "oh, he does a combo".

Now, if you are sponsored by EG or some shit, you really couldn't care less if your big ass "community" doesn't understand the game or even plays it, as long as they post emoticons in a stream chat and throw money at the screen. But 99.9% of the FG players don't get paid to play and aren't here to get paid to begin with. We have a clear interest that the community not only grows in raw numbers, but more importantly in quality.

You know the proverb "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" but in our case the horse doesn't even know what thirst is. I really do think that most of the "FGC" have never experienced enjoyment from a fighting game at the same level as we do.

That was partly the inspiration for me to work oh so many hours to create Guilty Bits, but I feel like the work is far from over, as long as I'm still not able to make people see what I see and appreciate the genre/game at the level that I appreciate it. (And BTW, my knowledge of the game probably multiplied by 5 in the process of making the series, so in the course of a few months I could actually feel the increase in enjoyment in both playing and watching high level play of the game, so all my claims of knowledge=enjoyment are from actual experience.)

Edited March 20, 2014 by tataki

[White Man]

Now, if you are sponsored by EG or some shit, you really couldn't care less if your big ass "community" doesn't understand the game or even plays it, as long as they post emoticons in a stream chat and throw money at the screen. But 99.9% of the FG players don't get paid to play and aren't here to get paid to begin with. We have a clear interest that the community not only grows in raw numbers, but more importantly in quality.

You know the proverb "you can lead a donkey to water but you can't make it drink" but in our case the donkey doesn't even know what thirst is. I really do think that most of the "FGC" have never experienced enjoyment from a fighting game at the same level as we do.

Wow, man. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, but the attitude here comes off as so elitist and exclusive that I'm kind of just shaking my head. "How do we attract more good players who do the acceptable amount of homework without bringing in more filthy casuals?" I know that's not exactly what you're saying, but that's the vibe I get when I read your post, especially the quoted portion.

I'm trying hard to be honest without sounding like too much of a jerk here. I know educating people is important and I'm aware of all that you do personally to spread that knowledge and I legitimately appreciate it, but this attitude that we're all chilling in some fancy club and we need to have bouncers outside to make sure people who don't clock enough time in training mode don't get through the door is TOXIC when it comes to scene growth. You have to open the gates as wide as possible and get people flooding in there, even the folks who "don't appreciate the genre/game at the level that you appreciate it." The ones who like what they see will stay and learn more; the rest will leave on their own.

No offense intended, but this kind of discriminatory mind-set is one of the worst things about the entirety of the FGC in my view. I think the elitism of the community probably does more to chase people away from a long-term relationship with this genre that the difficulty of the games themselves.

[tataki]

How the hell are you getting an elitist vibe from my post? I'm talking about elevating the people to the level where they can make their own informed decisions, and then let them make their own informed decisions, while in the current state of the scene the main tendency is to keep them uninformed because life's easier that way. I never said to keep people out of the "club". On the contrary- Open the doors widely and let people see what's inside.

You want an example of an exclusive club? "You can't beat people like Celeb Player X so don't even bother. Here, for Y amount of dollars you can watch him play in HD and have exclusive chat icons! Ain't that HYPE or what?!"

Sure, no one says something like this straight out of course, but I feel like that's the general approach the western FG scene is taking at the moment, just because it's less of a headache for everyone involved.

So please, don't talk to me about elitism and exclusive clubs when that's exactly the problem I'm presenting in this thread.

Edit:

Did you see Arturo's shirt?

It basically says it all. I feel like that's currently the first priority of the scene and I think it's bad for our goals.

Edited July 14, 2013 by tataki

[Neithan]

The problem is not the people, it's the games and their creators.

Games like SFIV of UMVC3 are made with comeback mechanics that are not only mechanics in the game. They are mechanics made to manage ego and attention. If the ultra exists it's not because the game wants to be unfair/stupid on purpose, it's because he wants the player to feel he is important and must be feared. Ultra in SFIV is a way for Capcom to keep the "uneducated" folk playing, because if the ultra works, they feel great ; if the ultra didn't work, they feel that at least they tried and rematch. And if the ultra works but you still lose, at least you have the feeling you did "something important, almost a full comeback" when the reality for all this is : the game offers you a free super that required no management, is invincible, and do a lot of damage. And for the spectator it's like the pinnacle of the match, the moment you wait even more than the KO. The bar is full, it's flashing, they are flames. All you want to see is this bar empty.

X-factor works the same but is more oriented for spectators, even Niitsuma said it. It's not as simple as the ultra because it needs management and skill to be used, so it's not about respecting the ego of the player. It's made on purpose to create comebacks artificially, so the player not knowing a lot the game have the feeling he is watching something exciting and great and unique. Now that the game is aging, most of the people are getting bored because they feel it's artificial. It's like this new pop singer designated as the NEW MARYLIN that lasts 3 months and is replaced by someone else. People get bored and that's why we are getting bored by UMVC3 (among other problems).

So actually, the real problem is the games. You have a feeling of greatness and importance much faster, your ego is much more respected with current gen games and it's a double cutting sword. The pleasure begins to fade a lot faster than older games. And most of the game creators do not know how to teach games to players and the public. Doing tutorials is ok for the player but stupid for the spectator as he can't do them. So you have to put an education vibe into you mechanics so even a noob can understand them and their effects without them being broken/safe/invincible.

Needless to say there is room for improvement.

[A Classy Gamer]

People like stupid shit because the potential for growth is most obvious on day 1. Here's a contrast of what I mean:

Day 1 Marvel: "OMG GUYZ I JUST DID A LOT OF DAMAGE WITH MAGIC SERIES! (Wonder what happens if I try to add in a few more hits here... Can I touch of death?)"

Day 1 Guilty Gear: "What does this even do? I don't have any information on how to combo from this..."

(Most) People don't want to spend endless amounts of time scouring replays and Youtube to see high level play of a character, and take notes on every combo and tactic represented and the result of each. If you don't go out of your way to find out some of the cancel chains and possibilities in something like Guilty Gear or Blazblue, everything is going to seem fairly one dimensional due to a lack of indication from the game on what you can work on improving. I know you put out the Guilty Bits series Tataki, but the problem is that casuals who don't search the internet for information are unlikely to see any of that, and will have no idea what they aren't doing. In games like Marvel, there are a lot of obvious indicators from the game that you can cancel something, combo after something, or combo into something; making the process of finding new things to learn much faster for people who aren't hardcore into fighting games.

In short, I think we need games that do a better job of explaining what you can do within the system in game. The best idea I have is make the in game command list like something out of a Brady or Prima guide: When you see the move, you see how it looks when performed, what it does on regular/counter hit, and the frames of the move in relation to other options for the character. In that respect, I think Injustice and Tekken Tag 2 have made some very good first steps.

[tataki]

I'm not talking about people who just bought the game at gamestop and it makes them feel good day 1, but about people who were exposed to high level FG play in some form.

In short, I think we need games that do a better job of explaining what you can do within the system in game. The best idea I have is make the in game command list like something out of a Brady or Prima guide: When you see the move, you see how it looks when performed, what it does on regular/counter hit, and the frames of the move in relation to other options for the character. In that respect, I think Injustice and Tekken Tag 2 have made some very good first steps.

I disagree. Raw data of frames and effects is the most boring shit ever on its own. What's interesting for the player is the REASON that makes him go find out that a move is -2 and what to do with that information. To explore a specific situation in a match and learn how to deal with it better, that's the engaging part.

If the player already knows how to understand frame data, he probably already knows about his game's forum where he can get that frame data anyway...

Edited July 14, 2013 by tataki

[BlackYakuzu94]

I feel its more the people rather than the games; every game caters to a specific crowd of people. MvC3/SFIV are more catered to the classic fighting game fans, who grew up on most of the old school mechanics, and are much slower-paced(Well...SF anyway). Games like GG/BB are are more differentiated and have way more mechanics than the previous games do: FD, FRC, IB, Burst, etc. etc. For someone who has been playing SF for years, going into something like GG can be daunting and not worth the effort.

And then of course, popularity has a large role here too; SF has been around longer, much longer and naturally the older members of FGC are mostly gonna prefer it. Most newcomers to the FGC are gonna hop on the Marvel bandwagon, without any real knowledge because its marvel.

[tataki]

I feel its more the people rather than the games; every game caters to a specific crowd of people. MvC3/SFIV are more catered to the classic fighting game fans, who grew up on most of the old school mechanics, and are much slower-paced(Well...SF anyway). Games like GG/BB are are more differentiated and have way more mechanics than the previous games do: FD, FRC, IB, Burst, etc. etc. For someone who has been playing SF for years, going into something like GG can be daunting and not worth the effort.

First you say people "prefer the SF play style", but then you say people actually have no fucking clue how to even digest airdashers. Which is it then? If it's the 2nd then you are agreeing with what I said?

[Rhiya]

This does come off as trolling to get attention so that you can make your point, though I think your point is valid.

The thing is -- even though I desperately wish all the stream monsters were players myself -- a lot of the stream monsters don't even care about playing on any substantial level. It's like the guy who watches baseball but never does more than play catch with his son. They find it engaging to watch, but don't care about actually going out there and doing it themselves. There were at least 30,000 people who watched P4A top 8 on Friday, and it was probably the most engaging P4A play I've ever seen, but I guarantee you that those amazing matches won't cause more than a fraction of the people who were watching to actually go out and buy the game, and fewer still will learn it.

FGs are partially a spectator sport now, and this is just a side-effect. People who only watch and don't play won't -care- about learning the intricacies of the game -- in fact, they'll expect the commentators to spit it out at them when they need those intricacies to get what's going on. I do think making information more accessible for the people who do choose to learn will be beneficial. However, you just can't expect that making information accessible will solve the problem of the uninformed stream monster.

[Hoax]

Registered just to say, you should probably re-read your post tomorrow and see if you can spot how your post doesn't lead to the conclusion you want/think it does.

[zeth07]

I don't really see where you're going with this. Maybe this would have been better suited on SRK? I'd like to think that Dustloop is a site that focuses a lot more on actual INFORMATION about the games instead of all the nonsense that goes along with it. So in that regard I don't really know what this thread accomplishes when the "problem" doesn't seem to be occurring here of all places.

I can't speak for the GG section since I only slightly follow along, but for BBCP I would think "we" have been doing a good job of getting all the needed information for the game to people, and it is easily accessible. The game hasn't even come out here and doesn't even have a release date but I guarantee you the people who follow along with their character probably already know what they can do in BBCP, and that says a lot.

I don't consider myself a part of the "tournament scene", but from the outside looking in, I would say if people really want the "scene" to grow it has entirely to do with getting exposure for GG/BB to everyone else who does NOT come to Dustloop. I can tell you for a fact that half the time this is entirely out of our control, because the other fighting game sites will not cover GG/BB information in the same depth that they do the "popular" games. The games that are thrown into everyone's faces 24/7 with countless news articles/videos are going to be popular because that's what everyone sees and talks about. They would rather show Maxmillian's Online Warrior or Funny and Cool Moments #287 than any high level Japanese GG or BB tournament going on.

Another example would be the fact that Aksys / Arc System Works did NOT bring BBCP to EVO but brought it to AX. The largest fighting game tournament in the US / the World, and for whatever reason/s they decide to not have it there. There's literally no excuse for that in my opinion, any actual problems should've been worked out somehow but them showing that it was more important to have it at AX than EVO kinda tells the story itself. If it was logistics with EVO itself, they could have just showed up as representatives and let the community handle running the "event" for it. I think that just shows how out of touch they are with the NA scene or the fact that they just don't care.

Don't even get me started on Arc System Works NA twitter......

Information accessibility is not the problem for scene growth for GG/BB, it is exposure within the entirety of the fighting game scene as a whole.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

dunno why but this thread made me remember that shit satoru iwata said, about gamers not being able to pass the 1-1 level in super mario bros

FGC, overall, is having a similar issue: most of their members became pussies who dun wanna learn shit

that's why stuff like GG and VF is greatly under appreciated. too complicated for their neurones

[BlackYakuzu94]

First you say people "prefer the SF play style", but then you say people actually have no fucking clue how to even digest airdashers. Which is it then? If it's the 2nd then you are agreeing with what I said?

I was saying that people who are used to games like SF may have a hard transitioning to something like GG. So yes, in essence I am agreeing with you.

[Chaoschao222]

dunno why but this thread made me remember that shit satoru iwata said, about gamers not being able to pass the 1-1 level in super mario bros

This thread reminded you of something fake? Still seems fitting, in some ways.

[Rhiya]

This thread reminded you of something fake? Still seems fitting, in some ways.

Realtalk, I actually believed that article the first time I read it.

It fit depressingly well with the amount of friends I have that can't beat Green Hill on Sonic 1.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

This thread reminded you of something fake? Still seems fitting, in some ways.

Wait, was it a fake?

In any case, most of my "modern" gamer friends can't pass shit like Megaman 2, so I can actually believe it

[Hecatom]

Man, i just recently had a discussion about this on SRK the other day.

It seems that the majority of players from UMVC3 really have a lack of understanding of the game they play.

That is why we keep hearing stuff, from the very same players that the game allows for "random" stuff happening, lol.

UMVC3 is a game that allows a lot of BS so that is why we see a great pool of players lacking the understanding of many stuff of the game like the spacing game and fundamentals, since it allows them to bypass it by learning hit confirms into combos to get massive damage due the heavy damage nature of the game.

[TheBossGiga]

In short, I think we need games that do a better job of explaining what you can do within the system in game. The best idea I have is make the in game command list like something out of a Brady or Prima guide: When you see the move, you see how it looks when performed, what it does on regular/counter hit, and the frames of the move in relation to other options for the character. In that respect, I think Injustice and Tekken Tag 2 have made some very good first steps.

I personally think that would be incredible. Having something like that would not only inform players on what each move does it would also allow players to intuitively make decisions on how to extend combo's, use moves and evaluate risk reward ALOT easier than it is now..(Hell I still don't know what some moves look like on counterhit) and that would certainly help throw ppl into what makes these games actually amazing.

First you say people "prefer the SF play style", but then you say people actually have no fucking clue how to even digest airdashers. Which is it then? If it's the 2nd then you are agreeing with what I said?

I don't see how those 2 are disconnected at alll. "people prefer the sf-style" "ppl dont understand airdashers" no they don't contradict, in fact it seems like the latter could be a reason for the first =/.

[tataki]

Registered just to say, you should probably re-read your post tomorrow and see if you can spot how your post doesn't lead to the conclusion you want/think it does.

I don't know? Your response is vague to me and I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[TD]

valid argument but im positive that most if not all current fighting games in this day and age has every possible outlet for improving. be it a forum, articles, videos, whatever.

there is no reason why someone who wants to be good at a fg cannot be good, assuming one has the capacity. you either put in the time to get competent... or you don't. it's that simple. you can invite someone to play and learn and whatever you want to try, but really, it's each individual's decision.

it's like college: you can go, do the hard work, do well, pass, and reap the rewards/be happy; you can go, try the work (or not), and fail; or you can just not go at all, watching all the successful people from the sidelines., and anything in between.

[tataki]

I don't really see where you're going with this. Maybe this would have been better suited on SRK?

No. I'd rather have a discussion with people who are in a similar situation and and agree with me that there's a problem to solve.

"other fighting game sites will not cover GG/BB information"

http://shoryuken.com/?s=guilty+bits&x=20&y=23

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-1450897751663577%3A52uugn-8vhu&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=guilty+bits&sa=Search&siteurl=iplaywinner.com%2F&ref=&ss=4739j1878413j19#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=guilty%20bits&gsc.page=1

Websites are just the pipes. It's our job to put make water flow in them.

Another example would be the fact that Aksys / Arc System Works did NOT bring BBCP to EVO but brought it to AX. The largest fighting game tournament in the US / the World, and for whatever reason/s they decide to not have it there. There's literally no excuse for that in my opinion, any actual problems should've been worked out somehow but them showing that it was more important to have it at AX than EVO kinda tells the story itself. If it was logistics with EVO itself, they could have just showed up as representatives and let the community handle running the "event" for it. I think that just shows how out of touch they are with the NA scene or the fact that they just don't care.

But once we get the game, the ball is in our field.

Don't even get me started on Arc System Works NA twitter......

what about him?

[Star-Demon]

"If we throw more books at people's heads, they'll like the game more and be better at it."

The College metaphor is garbage - It's not about time. Time can most certainly be wasted, and other people and environment around you can most certainly waste your time. You can be obstructed from pursuing your research because there's no money in it or the department (or even one person) doesn't like it. Your professors and TAs can be non-existent or impossible to contact, reach, or even communicate with. The culture around you can be ill-suited to learning properly instead of cheating, collaberating or cramming like a fool - and of course - The learning environment can be the lacking tools and avenues to suit your own learning style or suit your own intelligence.

College is not knowledge purchased for time. Neither is Fighting games, neither is anything!

This makes no sense in the real world - Games are accessible because the culture is appealing, the game is appealing, and of course, it's easy and fun to learn and play. People can like it for whatever reason they want to.

Now I'm gonna get AGGRESSIVE:

I'm not going to say "go post on SRK" because to me, it's akin to saying "Dustloop is an excel spreadsheet, go join SRK." (and ofc, play their game and enjoy their community instead).

Let's not bullshit ourselves - Dustloop is clearly not just an excel spreadsheet, so let's drop the idea that discussions like this don't belong in our community.

If you guys really think Dustloop is for information only then please delete the forums and wiki and just link an excel spreadsheet on google docs. I'm sure it'll be cheaper to maintain and the admins can control easily who gets to say what and always be satisfied with the information.

I'm also not going to say "you should like the game for the same reasons I do" - that's just really arrogant, elitist and self-important.

You want my top 5 ways to influence people to play your FG, you just do what I try to do locally:

1. Act like you are the ONLY person that plays this game and you NEED to get others to play.

2. Stop being an asshole to other games.

3. Treat everyone with fairness and respect - that includes the game and the characters in the game. I can't tell you how many people do not do this.

4. Teach them how to beat you - be open and honest about your own weaknesses. You must WANT others to beat you.

5. CARE about them getting better and want them to succeed.

I have gotten many people to play GG and BB when they otherwise would have shit on the game or been too intimidated to play it. I have gotten other people to become good community members and, if they ever joined us, they'd be making the people around them better players and better people.

A lot of people don't feel like it's their job to make anyone better - it's not your problem or the community's problem, but their own, but the thing is you want people to play your game, play it the way you want them to, and be good contributors and competitors. You're going to HAVE to care about them as people, and in ways you already do, so what's the problem?

Yes, It IS my job to make people better people - in every day life - and I'm going to do that so they play my game so we have fun playing it.

You may now lock this thread.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Star-Demon

[SwordsNStuff]

This does come off as trolling to get attention so that you can make your point, though I think your point is valid.

The thing is -- even though I desperately wish all the stream monsters were players myself -- a lot of the stream monsters don't even care about playing on any substantial level. It's like the guy who watches baseball but never does more than play catch with his son. They find it engaging to watch, but don't care about actually going out there and doing it themselves. There were at least 30,000 people who watched P4A top 8 on Friday, and it was probably the most engaging P4A play I've ever seen, but I guarantee you that those amazing matches won't cause more than a fraction of the people who were watching to actually go out and buy the game, and fewer still will learn it.

FGs are partially a spectator sport now, and this is just a side-effect. People who only watch and don't play won't -care- about learning the intricacies of the game -- in fact, they'll expect the commentators to spit it out at them when they need those intricacies to get what's going on. I do think making information more accessible for the people who do choose to learn will be beneficial. However, you just can't expect that making information accessible will solve the problem of the uninformed stream monster.

i agree with this post.

[skd]

@novril: i agree, ive put a lot of thought into this as well but a large number of people arent ready and willing to become so invested.

i feel as if the people you are addressing (using your metaphor, unaware of what being "thirsty" is, not having an actual "taste" etc) are the minority, at least when it comes to the anime scene.

i just think that most people with that issue simply arent interested in that kind of "relationship" with something they may just think of as a small hobby etc (with the amount of people able to change off of that with more accessible information being even smaller) with people who ARE interested not being ready or able to invest enough whether it be due to "inhospitable environment" (different people have different tolerances, its pretty irrefutable that this is a problem sometimes), lack of willingness to pursue in that direction past a certain extent, or even incapacity.

I honestly think there is a problem, i feel like i know what youre getting at, but it has way more to do with external factors. the end result is a scene thats really hard to cultivate, but c'est la vie. Accessible information in itself is a good thing, and does solve an aspect of the problem but i think it runs much deeper than that.

im not trying to be like, devils advocate or anything. this actually is a concern of mine as well, and although i havent really been in the scene for long, but ive definitely experienced what youre talking about. this is my take on it.

doushio

[Hecatom]

Another example would be the fact that Aksys / Arc System Works did NOT bring BBCP to EVO but brought it to AX. The largest fighting game tournament in the US / the World, and for whatever reason/s they decide to not have it there. There's literally no excuse for that in my opinion, any actual problems should've been worked out somehow but them showing that it was more important to have it at AX than EVO kinda tells the story itself. If it was logistics with EVO itself, they could have just showed up as representatives and let the community handle running the "event" for it. I think that just shows how out of touch they are with the NA scene or the fact that they just don't care.

Don't even get me started on Arc System Works NA twitter......

Information accessibility is not the problem for scene growth for GG/BB, it is exposure within the entirety of the fighting game scene as a whole.

I'll be honest, what incentive is for a company to bring their game to a tournament who has systematically shunned their games over the past years? Not to mention that the same scene has been very dismissive for their games.

Plus like it or not there are more profit for them trying to bring the anime enthusiasts than the "hardcore" players that usually see their games as lol animu.

The only reason why BB is "dead" on USA is because the scene, you have not shown them that you are interested on their games.