[CP] Nu vs Tager

[toanenadiz]

The Neutral Game

Long Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

Medium Range: Your Tools vs His Tools

Close Quarters: Your Tools vs His Tools

Offense

Your Offense:

His Offense:

Defense

Your Defense:

His Defense:

Frame Data: Advantageous, Disadvantageous, and Punishable Moves

Neutral/Advantageous Moves:

Disadvantageous Moves:

Punishable Moves:

Gimmicks and Resets

Match Summary

[ElegantShadow]

... So... How is this Match-up looking? About the same as always, or has something changed?

[someonewhodied]

Nothing really. Just stay in luna mode and zone as normal, throw out sickles in luna mode to catch his sledge.

Only go into dia mode in combos or to throw out gravity.

[toanenadiz]

lol. I've actually found the opposite to be true for me. I spend the entire match-up in Dia and only go Luna for combos.

[someonewhodied]

why do we play so opposite of each other D;

also there are some interesting combos you can get working against tager.

mainly midscreen 6DD>2DD>236C in luna mode for an air combo.

[Kimaf]

this match up is the worst for nu-13 if tager spam sledg. I lose 80% of my match vs tager full sledge u_u

[someonewhodied]

How to deal with tager 101:

Step 1:

Land a [Dia]5DD/4DD/3C/6C>236D~22A to safely modechange.

Use act parsers to distance yourself.

Step 2:

Throw out tons of [Luna]236D

Step 3:

Spam 6D

Step 4:

Block spark bolt

Return to step 2.

Congratulations, you can now beat almost any tager ever.

Also midscreen 3C>236D~22A>6DD works on tager.

[Angel-tastic]

So I don't play Nu so much now, but I always thought that the matches where Tager spams sledge indiscriminately were the easiest ones.

Sledge only blocks projectiles through its active animation, so you can just wait for sledge's recovery and then counter him with your drive.

It seems like sledge only helps Tager if he is close enough to actually hit Nu with it, as otherwise Nu's projectiles just seem to come out too fast for sledge spamming to work.

Maybe I just got lucky in my Tager matches, but a lot of Tager players I've followed look like they opt to just block Nu's drives to close the distance, so I think that's probably why.

[someonewhodied]

Uhhhhh.holy shit.

So.

Is there a way to get out of

Gadget Finger>RC>j.360 whiff x N>meaty 360?

Its a frame 1 command grab. Can we jump out? or anything?

[toanenadiz]

You can jump out of all meaty ground command throws.

[someonewhodied]

Maybe i just had bad luck or something. I was upbacking the whole time i was being thrown around the screen :v

[Daramue]

I have very little matchup experience with Tager and recently I've been trying to work to improve this, but I'm unsure how to handle his pressure up close. Given I know no offline friends that play Tager and I just have to hope I find a tager player online I've had to practice my matchup against the AI, and I'm aware that does little to nothing for matchup experience given the computer can't block at all, has exploitable patterns, and has twitch, frame perfect reactions (Don't act parser against the AI; he'll grab catch you in the middle of it). Even so, I've felt if nothing else it will help me deal with his close range game at least more so than if I did nothing.

Yes, Nu's defense is abysmal and you don't want to be close to Tager anyway, but when he inevitably gets close to me he'll keep me locked down with sledge and gatling his normals until he 360A/360B's me and gadget fingers me, continuing the gauntlet. Save a counter assault or burst (Both have been fairly reliable but aren't free, of course), is there anyway to escape from this pressure? I've had some success backdashing after gadget finger to escape but he's still catch me with what I believe to be his 5D most of the time.

I'm very inexperienced with dealing with him. Any suggestions at dealing with his close range game (in particular 360A/360B, which it doesn't seem as though you can throw escape) are appreciated.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Daramue

[kenja0]

The best way to learn the Tager matchup is to practice blocking his pressure game first. Treat him as a character who does not have command grabs; don't worry about getting out of command grabs just yet. If you are having to practice against real opponents who won't give you that time of day, it does mean you will have to eat the lot of them. However, learning to block his pressure comes first. If you worry about his command grab, you will be more in tune to do something risky and get punished for it and worst of all, never learning the matchup.

Once you learn his pressure and block everything he can throw out (overheads and all), now is the time to learn where he is punishable. Study his framedata. Pressure has an end to it or a gap that allows him to start over. Learn what you can throw out attacks, jump, or backdash. His 6A's super armor can be punished on startup with a close 2B (don't jump unless you can jump out). If he gets it out, watch for 3C and react to the overheads. Once he starts hitting C buttons, you have a lot more chances to escape via backdash or attacks. Anything after D moves allows you start pressure. If he cancels anything into A Sledge, he forfeits pressure. If he cancels into B Sledge then punish it with an attack only; if he gets B Sledge off, watch for Hammer which comes immediately or jump if he doesn't do it.

Once you learn where you can block his pressure and punish/escape him, you will now be able to recognize where he staggers his pressure. Staggering pressure usually means a command grab.

Command grabs have 11 or 6 frames of startup. Tager's most common moves into Command Grab: 5A (+4), 5B (0), 2A (+2), 2B (+5), 6A (-27/-22), Sledge A (-4), Sledge B (+1). You can backdash (invulnerable frames 1-5) some of these, but if you get predictable, he can hold out Command Grab. If you are jumping back, airdash; if you are jumping forward then attack to stuff possible Atomic Collider reads.

Now that you've learned how to deal with his close game, learn his gimmicks and test out some delay techs to throw him off his game.

Now learn to zone. Don't autopilot and double tap the D button in Dia mode since Sledge can punish your second D pressure; also get to your Jump cancels as much as you can. If he disrespectfully Sledges everything you do, punish with 5BB/2BB/6B/6C/3C. This will scare him into not spamming Sledge. Once the Tager starts respecting you, you can start playing higher level mind games and play a real match with a good Tager. If he doesn't, then you know how to beat the spammers and derps.

Now based off all this information, it doesn't sound productive to start at the pressure and then learn to zone. But on the contrary, if you don't learn his pressure, he will stomp you every time. As a zoner, Tager has to work really hard to get in. There is something called human error and with that he has the potential of getting in. If we don't understand the tools he has up close, how are we to escape and start our zone again? This will also teach you to deal with being under pressure and staying cool. Patience is the key to this matchup and playing Nu as a whole.

Edited March 5, 2014 by kenja0

[Daramue]

kenja0, Thanks a lot for writing so much about it. Something I didn't realize is that I have a 4 frame advantage against a blocked A-Sledge.

In regards to zoning, I'm not having much trouble keeping him out. Indiscriminate sledges are easy enough to punish with Luna 236B or 6C. A lot of gravity and 6D (for jump cancel) has helped me keep the distance. It's just that once he gets close either by input reading a 5d or another projectile I had great difficulty keeping him off me; it was almost like I was playing a different game compared to all the other characters. None of my offline friends play tager and I have somewhat limited experience at conventions or tournaments playing against one, and I've been playing Nu since CT. With a majority of my subs I have a considerably easier time keeping him out, especially Mu with whom I have no trouble shutting him down or escaping from his pressure.

The information you've provided gives me enough to deal with his close-range pressure game. Thanks again.

[Speakeasy]

So I am either very stupid or have balls of steel, but I'm liking IAD j.B crossups just to keep Tager on his toes if he gets close. It's such a bad idea that they never see it coming and always get hit. I will be saddened when people start seeing it coming and punishing me for it.

[AvatarofWhat]

wow... i just got owned by a tager 4 times in a row that never used sledge. He didnt use it once.

 

I guess i'm just terrible but he would just back up and wait for spark bolt. I'd maybe block them but I couldnt get any damaging combos since he would just back up and jump and block. Very patiently he would wait until he finally saw a chance to spark bolt even if it was a trade and then GG. Even if we traded hits I was magnetized and he would proceed to destroy me. Should I just wait out the timer and block after I've got a decent life lead? Wait until he goes aggressive? is that my best option against a passive tager like that? I didn't want to get him against the corner because I was afraid to move in. I was honestly just confused, and after the 4th match pretty much humiliated. Was doing well all night as well, beating players who knew much sweeter combos then I can pull off, and despite dropping a lot of my own combos, winning through solid fundamentals and decent reads. Then...that. Hell, i wanted him to use sledge!

 

I could not deal with his command grabs. Maybe it was lag but it was just terrible, i couldnt get out of purple throws! I guess the one thing I wasnt trying was pure backdashing(id try to jump airdash instead). The one time I tried it he held the throw and I was pulled in anyway. I didn't have any problem blocking his normals for the most part. I was successful at doing that at least, but he would throw me to death. He didnt need anything else apparently.

 

5a did not seem to work at poking out genesic emerald buster. What normal should I be using?

 

I guess this guy was levels above me and was trying to prove a point, that he could beat nu without sledge?

 

I'll for sure analyze the replays in the morning. I've never felt so helpless

[mAc Chaos]

Sledge is actually terrible. So the fact that he was patient and never used it means you were probably fighting a good Tager.

You can't poke out of Genesic Emerald Tager Buster (720). It's completely invincible when it grabs you, so if you're next to him when he does it, prepare to see "TAGER WIN." But ground grabs won't work if you're a single pixel off the ground, so you have to jump away or already be on the way out when he does it.

And your best bet is to run away constantly and keep him at range with your swords. Once Tager gets near you it's over.

[AvatarofWhat]

Sledge is actually terrible. So the fact that he was patient and never used it means you were probably fighting a good Tager.

You can't poke out of Genesic Emerald Tager Buster (720). It's completely invincible when it grabs you, so if you're next to him when he does it, prepare to see "TAGER WIN." But ground grabs won't work if you're a single pixel off the ground, so you have to jump away or already be on the way out when he does it.

And your best bet is to run away constantly and keep him at range with your swords. Once Tager gets near you it's over.

I guess that would explain why I wasnt able to poke out of it. I thought sledge was actually pretty useful if timed right and just bad if spammed. Then again, I dont play tager. Guess I just need to be exceedingly careful about spark bolt, to the point that maybe I dont poke him if hes doing literally nothing and I have a large life lead. Wait for him to do something I guess.

 

I thought nu would be pretty solid in this matchup but its much closer then I thought. At least he can mess up all day if hes being defensive since I can't deal much damage when hes like that while I need to only mess up one time.

[BloodWolF]

Nu is a character that gets punished heavily for mistakes and he is one that punishes HEAVILY on the mistakes of his opponents.You have to the tools to make this matchup work well for you (not as well as it used to, but that's a good thing), but you just have to use them correctly. You're going to fuck up, we all do, but you can work on it and be patient with him. You'll know when you make a mistake..as your hp bar will probably go from full to 30% and you'll be waking up right where he wants you...in his casino of Tager games where your cards don't matter and grab tech is an illusion of hope. This matchup (and Hakumen) is like trying to stop a fully loaded train by throwing empty coke cans at it. Just stay out of his way and throw your "cans" when you have the opportunity.

 

Edit: This doesn't mean you should never go in on him..just be smart about it.

[someonewhodied]

Just crush trigger him after putting him in a luna sickle. You can just throw sickle out like whatever from full screen safely unless he has spark bolt.

 

Also do run up overheads and grabs.

 

And if he has no heat, you can optionselect his backdash with 5A>6B

[AvatarofWhat]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll def try and guard crush him when hes blocking luna sickle. I'll also try to be more patient against him.

[BloodWolF]

I don't think you can "just" do any of those things. CT during sickle will probably work ONCE. After that, he won't give any shits to just barrier block/buster you depending on your distance. Run up OH can be grabbed as well if it's 4B and on block TK j.214D will leave you inches from him falling in recovery. There is a time and place for each of these things, so they CAN be used effectively, but I wouldn't say that it's your go-to plan against him..which is what was asked about.

[mAc Chaos]

I should also mention, thanks to Toan poking at me, that Sledge actually DOES have its uses. It's one of the Tager tools that defines the matchup and forces you to be careful with your swords. But it's also one of the things Tager gets murdered by Nu for when he spams it, so good Tagers are very careful with it.

[Speakeasy]

When should I burst against this guy if I get hit? Immediately so I don't get magnetized?

[toanenadiz]

Whenever you think it won't be baited. Even if he magnetizing you, you send him full screen when you burst and so you can lay down a gravity well to let the magnetism wear off.