[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[D.R.F.]

I always called the first part "Gauntlet" and the second part "Hades"

Lol

[mAc Chaos]

I always called the first part "Gauntlet" and the second part "Hades"

Just like Hell's Fang.

[Anne]

.

The matter is more or less this thread always devolves into the same shit:

complaining about a character (probably Nu or Tsubaki)

some abstract game theory that's probably off base (like the CS Extend talk)

tiers and character power levels, some of which is also abstract and off base

After awhile it all bleeds together and people just start saying wild off base stuff like what I quoted about Relius, or that Ragna having mostly even MUs is a good measuring stick (protip: it's actually a terrible measuring stick), or that certain MUs go one way etc. Like whatever discussion about UNiEL is happening already has some wild, flat out wrong things said and is ultimately pointless to the thread.

I could be an asshole and just say "Hey, this is all unproductive, doesn't belong here, misinformation is against the rules" and be way more heavy handed, but I let it rock because you guys are active and you seem to enjoy it. I actually don't have fun putting people down, I like people talking and being active. At some point though, somebody needs to interject and say "hey, this is just plain wrong or wild or ultimately useless" because the goal of this forum is to have useful and correct information to help people learn. I worry about new players seeing threads like these and picking up bad attitudes and ideas, or learning things that are just plain wrong.

For your specific case I was more or less teasing you for what you said about Relius. A high tier setplay character with very questionable risk/reward being the good example of balance and design? That's some wild shit. Sorry I offended you to whatever degree, but I will try to cut up if you say something that silly.

 

- Merkava 50/50 needs knockdown where he is actually close enough to do a safejump. Contrary to popular opinion his mixup and neutral aren't THAT good so he will struggle to get that knockdown in the first place.

- Wald 360A has very short range and he has a crap dash meaning he usually needs to assault to get close enough where it's actually a threat, meaning you can AA him when he tries. 360B is techable.

- Carmine's command throw is easily reactable, you can jump out after the superflash, same with any other EX throw in the game. If he sets up crystal to cover it you can still DP it and trade with the crystal and he will take more damage than you. It's only a legit unblockable if you're Byakuya since he has no DP, everyone else has some way out I think.

- Vatista has no IOH unless you're talking about j.C CS dive/2C which can be DP'd on reaction.

- Seth has no crossup unless you're talking about dash C to 623A which is reactable.

- Linne has no crossup other than roll 2A which is reactable.

- Byakuya's FF is like 30f startup and his FFC glitch has comparable startup and the same FF startup animation, so you can just block overhead either way.

All of those characters still manage to open people up and actually win doing combos that deal about 30% of a bar so I'd take that as proof that 50/50s aren't a requirement to actually finishing a round.

For the record almost ALL of this is horribly wrong. This is the problem, this is why I'm willing to say fuck it and just be super heavy handed, to stop this from happening. Sorry if that comes off as mean, but I can't have it happening anymore, and I can't count on people to actually correct things.

[Airk]

I thought it was obvious that I didn't mean everyone should actually HAVE a 5-5 matchup with Ragna, but rather that Ragna's power level was where I'd like to see the cast. :P  (Read: Basically what lots of people are saying: That the A- to B+ tier range is the 'healthy' one.  It's also where a large portion of the cast already is, which is convenient because it means you have to radically alter fewer characters.)

[Myoro]

The matter is more or less this thread always devolves into the same shit:

complaining about a character (probably Nu or Tsubaki)

some abstract game theory that's probably off base (like the CS Extend talk)

tiers and character power levels, some of which is also abstract and off base

After awhile it all bleeds together and people just start saying wild off base stuff like what I quoted about Relius, or that Ragna having mostly even MUs is a good measuring stick (protip: it's actually a terrible measuring stick), or that certain MUs go one way etc. Like whatever discussion about UNiEL is happening already has some wild, flat out wrong things said and is ultimately pointless to the thread.

I could be an asshole and just say "Hey, this is all unproductive, doesn't belong here, misinformation is against the rules" and be way more heavy handed, but I let it rock because you guys are active and you seem to enjoy it. I actually don't have fun putting people down, I like people talking and being active. At some point though, somebody needs to interject and say "hey, this is just plain wrong or wild or ultimately useless" because the goal of this forum is to have useful and correct information to help people learn. I worry about new players seeing threads like these and picking up bad attitudes and ideas, or learning things that are just plain wrong.

For your specific case I was more or less teasing you for what you said about Relius. A high tier setplay character with very questionable risk/reward being the good example of balance and design? That's some wild shit. Sorry I offended you to whatever degree, but I will try to cut up if you say something that silly.

For the record almost ALL of this is horribly wrong. This is the problem, this is why I'm willing to say fuck it and just be super heavy handed, to stop this from happening.

 

I don't think you got the message perhaps. We're not saying everyone should be high tier (Which is impossible) or have set-play. We're saying we feel that Rel strikes a good balance between effort and reward, and is strong without being too strong. He's also got weaknesses too that won't let him completely shut out a savvy opponent. His gauge system also works as gauges are intended, granting him access to moves with many utilities, while having the drawback of having to be managed and Rel being disadvantaged without it.

 

Of course not all characters should be 5:5 with one another, and of course not all characters should play like Rel. Characters can have different tools and different ways of being powerful, but I feel like everyone should be balanced somewhere near the area of his "Reasonably strong, with weaknesses. Definitely can win, but has to work for it"

 

Oh yeah, and someone's gonna have to define set-play for me. I know it as characters who use cause and effect to determine their actions, and it seems like everyone arguably has a bit of that.

[Anne]

I don't think you got the message perhaps. We're not saying everyone should be high tier (Which is impossible) or have set-play. We're saying we feel that Rel strikes a good balance between effort and reward, and is strong without being too strong. He's also got weaknesses too that won't let him completely shut out a savvy opponent. His gauge system also works as gauges are intended, granting him access to moves with many utilities, while having the drawback of having to be managed and Rel being disadvantaged without it.

 

Of course not all characters should be 5:5 with one another, and of course not all characters should play like Rel. Characters can have different tools and different ways of being powerful, but I feel like everyone should be balanced somewhere near the area of his "Reasonably strong, with weaknesses. Definitely can win, but has to work for it"

 

Oh yeah, and someone's gonna have to define set-play for me. I know it as characters who use cause and effect to determine their actions, and it seems like everyone arguably has a bit of that.

No I understand what you guys are saying, and I'm still saying the discussion is off base, abstract, and pretty shoddy. I think you guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm saying the discussion itself is something that's not productive and results in poor things being said, and is something that is best to be avoided. Like I don't care what argument you guys are making in the end, all I pointed out is what TD said about Relius is incredibly misleading and not okay. That's just an example.

The point is you guys either complain or talk about something abstract like this and poor/incorrect things are being said. I could just outright put an end to these types of discussions, or you guys can be better about it.

Oh, and setplay is short for "set up" play. A setplay character is a character who knocks you down, then can do a number of set ups heavily in their favor risk/reward wise that are strong mix ups(they usually loop back into themselves). Relius, Rachel are examples from BB, Millia/Eddie from GG, Chie/Narukami from Vanilla P4U etc.

[Myoro]

What would you describe as productive discussion then? =/

 

As an aside Rel's Mix-up is fairly sub-par outside of his corner fuzzy. I'll concede his damage is pretty good as despite its cap being low-end, he can easily confirm into 2.7K+ midscreen and 3.5K+ in the corner from most moves and can get an extra 1K on good starters, but his unblockables are all avoidable with proper teching DP-ing and lack thereof. I feel as if TD was mostly right.

[Anne]

What would you describe as productive discussion then?

 

As an aside Rel's Mix-up is fairly sub-par outside of his corner fuzzy. I'll concede his damage is pretty good as despite its cap being low-end, he can easily confirm into 2.7K+ midscreen and 3.5K+ in the corner from most moves and can get an extra 1K on good starters, but his unblockables are all avoidable with proper teching DP-ing and lack thereof.

No, no Relius' mix up is not sub par. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Myoro]

His pressure is pretty fantastic, but his overheads are 6A and falling air normals. I hear people talking about how easy it is to just wait it out until Ignis is drained.

 

To go further upon that, grabbing has limited utility as it removes Ignis and blue-bars her, he can use cross-up j.B with some minor setting up, but most of getting through the opponent's guard is frame trapping or baiting a DP.

[Angry Guy of DE]

Relius isn't too scary...

But that wife of his, Whoo.

If she isn't a Battle-Axe...wait she's 1/3 Battle-Axe.

[D.R.F.]

His pressure is pretty fantastic, but his overheads are 6A and falling air normals. I hear people talking about how easy it is to just wait it out until Ignis is drained.

To go further upon that, grabbing has limited utility as it removes Ignis and blue-bars her, he can use cross-up j.B with some minor setting up, but most of getting through the opponent's guard is frame trapping or baiting a DP.

Thats really the game plan when on defense. Its kinda hard because after a while, nerves take over and mistakes occur, but no there isn't any unblockable high/low stuff lol. Relius mixup is a bit better than rags' stuff, but ragna mixup is super generic and bad in its own right, so meh. Relius does have pretty great screen control though so yay?:D

[TD]

I agree 110% with myoro's post, nothing to add there, so i'm just going to like that.

 

@annefrank, so you disagree with what it sounds like everything I mentioned about relius. alright. by the way, I wrote a guide on relius via pm (I have to look for it as it is a bit dusty), as well as filled in some of the relius forum matchup threads, I would appreciate if you took a look at those and let me know what you think.

 

so now, if I am correct, and you do believe everything I have mentioned about relius is extremely abstract, I'll do this. I'll make a list. I'll appreciate if you answered each question with a yes or no and explain your reasoning:

 

ragna rachel is close to even. :v

 

and yes, relius would be a great example of balance right now. he has plenty of great tools, all moves in his arsenal can be used in some way, and he has a clearly defined mechanic with great synergy between all of his moves. he's not shitting out damage or mixup or unblockables, his overdrive is fair for the most part,and he doesn't get destroyed or utterly destroy any other character. unrelated, he is also both beginner friendly and a challenge to veterans. (I think he can be a bit more of a challenge, but it's whatever.)

 

do you believe he has plenty of tools?

 

can all of his moves be used in some way?

 

does he shit out damage, mixups, and/or unblockables according to the game's statistics for each category?

 

is his overdrive fair and balanced?

 

does he get destroyed or destroy any other character? by destroy, I mean realistically, the matchup is somewhere around 6.5 for either character.

 

***

 

this is basically everything I have said, that you so vehemently disagree with, sprouting some other nonsense completely unrelated to this situation, and ultimately, being completely and utterly dogmatic despite how you think you are acting.

 

I just want you to know; yet again, I have done my research on this character, relius. I have played him for a long time. I understand plenty of this character's concepts, from zoning, to rushdown, to defense. I am not just talking out of my ass here, sir. I would really like you to think about these questions at a tournament level. let me know if this character completely dominates to the point of being oppressive, in any of his strengths.

 

or, here's a better idea. how about we get lich in here to weigh his opinion, since he is a notable relius in the tournament scene.

[mAc Chaos]

Annel, it's hard to get anything useful out of your post so far because everybody who made their posts about their opinions obviously thinks they're well founded or they wouldn't have posted them. So just saying "don't post wrong stuff" doesn't help if you don't point out how they're wrong. The best that can do is just make everybody not post because they have no idea what might be wrong, and then they'll never learn what they're wrong about either because nobody will correct them. Either that, or just ignore the warning and plow on ahead anyway, in which case we're back where we started.

 

It's better to just let people hash it out, as long as it's not spam or just blatantly off topic. It's still gameplay discussion, after all. Fighting games are too complex to boil down things like character strengths and matchups into completely objective answers.

[Justice7541]

For the record almost ALL of this is horribly wrong. This is the problem, this is why I'm willing to say fuck it and just be super heavy handed, to stop this from happening. Sorry if that comes off as mean, but I can't have it happening anymore, and I can't count on people to actually correct things.

I realize this isn't even the focus of the discussion but if you're going to claim that what I'm saying is "horribly wrong" maybe you'd like to inform me what Byakuya's or Vatista's or Linne's or whoever's 50/50s are, because either you have a very loose definition of 50/50 or you know tech that the vast majority of players who actually main those characters don't. Either way if you're gonna go so far as to specifically call someone out for being "horribly wrong" you can't just go "fuck it" and leave it at that.

[TeeJay]

No I understand what you guys are saying, and I'm still saying the discussion is off base, abstract, and pretty shoddy. 

The point is you guys either complain or talk about something abstract like this and poor/incorrect things are being said.

 

Annel, it's hard to get anything useful out of your post so far because everybody who made their posts about their opinions obviously thinks they're well founded or they wouldn't have posted them. So just saying "don't post wrong stuff" doesn't help if you don't point out how they're wrong. The best that can do is just make everybody not post because they have no idea what might be wrong, and then they'll never learn what they're wrong about either because nobody will correct them. Either that, or just ignore the warning and plow on ahead anyway, in which case we're back where we started.

 

It's better to just let people hash it out, as long as it's not spam or just blatantly off topic. It's still gameplay discussion, after all. Fighting games are too complex to boil down things like character strengths and matchups into completely objective answers.

I suppose the thread is intended for factual gathering and specific information rather than more philosophical or opinionated discussions. The latter is pretty abstract or subjective. I admit that I haven't thought about the thread as the former so I suppose that's where the miscommunication is. I'm not quite sure how that's to be executed. I don't think anyone listing specific details is that shoddy. 

 

 

[Errol]

Matchups are super hard. Frankly, minor differences in knowledge can make a big difference in how a matchup plays out.  

 

Matchup numbers usually are just people saying they lose or win in some matchup. whatever.

 

The good stuff is real information about how matchups play out. what you can do, how to play neutral, on defense, on offense, all that good stuff..

 

My opinions are half informed by my own play ( I do play this game a lot, Super bad player) and half better players (N-O). N-O's info on matchups sometimes doesn't line up with what people expect over here.

 

Also, Relius mixup might not be the best but it is fucking godlike in 1bar netplay.

[mAc Chaos]

If it's specifically complaining that's the issue, then yeah, that can get pretty obnoxious. We have already heard for the 5000th time about how bad Tsubaki is.

[Skye]

I wonder what's the opinion on Arakune in this context.

[Anne]

I realize this isn't even the focus of the discussion but if you're going to claim that what I'm saying is "horribly wrong" maybe you'd like to inform me what Byakuya's or Vatista's or Linne's or whoever's 50/50s are, because either you have a very loose definition of 50/50 or you know tech that the vast majority of players who actually main those characters don't. Either way if you're gonna go so far as to specifically call someone out for being "horribly wrong" you can't just go "fuck it" and leave it at that.

Merkava is not going to struggle to get a hit and knock you down. He can do massive corner carry into a hard knockdown which gives him his setplay or super oppressive options.

Wald is going to assault at you but AAing him is rough, and the uses for 360A/B are in context to the rest of his tools and the situations he places you in. It's a super legit mix up tool, grappler mix up.

Vatista can IOH you without CS anyways, and even if she CSes she still has the option to go low which is unreactable anyways.

Regarding Seth set ups, he makes you guess in ways that aren't just left/right and has actual mix up elsewhere.

Linne's mix up is tame and you're right, but the idea of it is pretty irrelevant in what you're trying to say.

[Myoro]

Matchups are super hard. Frankly, minor differences in knowledge can make a big difference in how a matchup plays out.  

 

Matchup numbers usually are just people saying they lose or win in some matchup. whatever.

 

The good stuff is real information about how matchups play out. what you can do, how to play neutral, on defense, on offense, all that good stuff..

 

My opinions are half informed by my own play ( I do play this game a lot, Super bad player) and half better players (N-O). N-O's info on matchups sometimes doesn't line up with what people expect over here.

 

Also, Relius mixup might not be the best but it is fucking godlike in 1bar netplay.

 

Well in netplay, DP>Rapid>DP is considered mix-up and DP>Rapid>DP>Rapid>DP is advanced mix-up. I'm not at all surprised Rel's Mix would be considered godly there. =D

 

 

If it's specifically complaining that's the issue, then yeah, that can get pretty obnoxious. We have already heard for the 5000th time about how bad Tsubaki is.

 

I try to never complain, unless I'm working to solve what I'm complaining about. Yeah, Tsubaki's not the best, that may or may not change in the coming years. What we know can change on a dime is the person playing Tsubaki, so the solution to that is to learn as much as one can and become stronger as a player or just switch characters.. If people take that to heart there should be no more qualms.

[Zidane]

 

Also, Relius mixup might not be the best but it is fucking godlike in 1bar netplay.

 

You wanted to be superadmin Anne.

 

This is the fate you chose. 

[Synyster17]

I wonder what's the opinion on Arakune in this context.

 

idk it looks like he got a little better. i tried to play him but could never get into it due to a lack combo thread and such. his OD got buffed but IMO it was already one of the better ones and people i saw used it alot.

[Justice7541]

Merkava is not going to struggle to get a hit and knock you down. He can do massive corner carry into a hard knockdown which gives him his setplay or super oppressive options.

Wald is going to assault at you but AAing him is rough, and the uses for 360A/B are in context to the rest of his tools and the situations he places you in. It's a super legit mix up tool, grappler mix up.

Vatista can IOH you without CS anyways, and even if she CSes she still has the option to go low which is unreactable anyways.

Regarding Seth set ups, he makes you guess in ways that aren't just left/right and has actual mix up elsewhere.

Linne's mix up is tame and you're right, but the idea of it is pretty irrelevant in what you're trying to say.

 

Merk has no mixup other than his safejump 50/50 and his neutral isn't that good compared to what other characters have; he still needs to open you up which is hard as well as potentially risky if you just block well.

 

Wald assault is reactably AAable, it's matchup-dependent though so I will give you this one.

 

Vatista doesn't have an IOH.  She does have TK divekick but that is 20f startup + 4f jump startup which is plenty reactable since you just watch her feet and block high if she's in the air, low if she's not.  She also has no fast low so if she tries to do something like j.C > divekick/2C mixup that's also reactable.

 

Seth's mixups are heavily gimmicky due to crossup and overhead protection so most of his mixups are actually hard reads to try to punish you punishing his unsafe pressure.  He only has like three actual ways to cross you up, all of which are pretty slow, and his other mixup mostly revolves around setting you up for his command throw (which is really bad) or his dive unblockable, but those aren't 50/50s either, it's more of an issue of getting them to respect you enough that you can sneak something in when they should be mashing.

 

Mixups obviously do exist but they are much more in the vein of frametraps and mindgames than raw reaction times.  It is entirely possible to just turtle out a good portion of the cast if you have semi-decent reaction times until they self-destruct, you can watch vids and see it being done all the time.  There's very little in the way of "I made you block, now I'm gonna do a thing that is straight-up unreactable" like what Rachel or Valk have.  That's pretty much what I was addressing, plus the argument that Vat/Linne/Bya/Seth have unreactable crossups/overheads.  Whether they have other mixups that might work in any given scenario is besides the point.

[Synyster17]

Merk has no mixup other than his safejump 50/50 and his neutral isn't that good compared to what other characters have; he still needs to open you up which is hard as well as potentially risky if you just block well.

 

Wald assault is reactably AAable, it's matchup-dependent though so I will give you this one.

 

Vatista doesn't have an IOH.  She does have TK divekick but that is 20f startup + 4f jump startup which is plenty reactable since you just watch her feet and block high if she's in the air, low if she's not.  She also has no fast low so if she tries to do something like j.C > divekick/2C mixup that's also reactable.

 

Seth's mixups are heavily gimmicky due to crossup and overhead protection so most of his mixups are actually hard reads to try to punish you punishing his unsafe pressure.  He only has like three actual ways to cross you up, all of which are pretty slow, and his other mixup mostly revolves around setting you up for his command throw (which is really bad) or his dive unblockable, but those aren't 50/50s either, it's more of an issue of getting them to respect you enough that you can sneak something in when they should be mashing.

 

Mixups obviously do exist but they are much more in the vein of frametraps and mindgames than raw reaction times.  It is entirely possible to just turtle out a good portion of the cast if you have semi-decent reaction times until they self-destruct, you can watch vids and see it being done all the time.

 

why are you guys talking about unib here? isn't this the bbcp thread?

[Justice7541]

why are you guys talking about unib here? isn't this the bbcp thread?

 

Someone said something along the lines of "If there's no 50/50 mixup the games will go on forever and we'll need touch-of-death combos on everyone to compensate" and I brought up how UNIEL has no 50/50 mixup but then mentioned Gordeau command grab as an exception.  Then things snowballed from there.  I'll stop now.