bakahyl Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Tsubaki pooping out 10K would be nice for once. Didn't she have a very unpractical combo that did over 10k damage with gold bursts in CSE
Airk Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 But Terumi's moves are fast and lead into tons of damage, (ofc he's gotta have meter, and somehow get the opponent to stop blocking low) Terumi has very little standing between him and top tier status. If he had a 20 frame overhead that lead into damage, he would be wrecking people. When I say "moves are fast" I really mean "mixup is fast" or at least "has a fast overhead."
Errol Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Terumi has very little standing between him and top tier status. If he had a 20 frame overhead that lead into damage, he would be wrecking people. When I say "moves are fast" I really mean "mixup is fast" or at least "has a fast overhead." He has a 19 frame overhead. When terumi hits arcades you'll see people using it. till then, let the whining commence
Putin Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 5C (1) > j.2D? The only thing the opponent has to do is block high after 5C (1) and he's done. Terumi can't cancel the first hit into a low anyway so it's piss easy to block his shit. 2C > j.2C is also really easy to see His only legit mixups require 50 meter
Errol Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 He has a 19 frame overhead. When terumi hits arcades you'll see people using it. till then, let the whining commence Yeah, really nothing else to say.
Justice7541 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Why though? C normal buffs don't balance those nerfs, and why are weaker characters getting nerfs at all? Because his 2DA is a 17f overhead that leads to 4k midscreen? Soulds like a fair nerf to me. It's not like he didn't get any buffs, in fact I'd say his buffs substantially outweigh the nerfs, being that now he can stance cancel 2DA into mixups or shenanigans. 2DB being safer is also a big deal because it means a blocked 6DC is less likely to get him killed. C recovery is a mixed bag since less blockstun = C > drive is less tight but it also means that whiffed C is safer. Either way it's a bit early to speculate about Kagura until we get the full list of changes for him.
bakahyl Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Because his 2DA is a 17f overhead that leads to 4k midscreen? You forgot to add the amount of frames of going into his stance
D.R.F. Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 God I hate arcsys for what they did to makoto and tsubaki. Absolutely no reasoning to why they would nerf them EVEN MORE, its ridiculous Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Errol Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I think tsubaki is probably not really nerfed now. probably pretty slightly improved, overall. same as other chars that were bad, minor changes
Justice7541 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 You forgot to add the amount of frames of going into his stance He has a low off the same stance so it's not like seeing him go into the stance helps you react to it.
bakahyl Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 He has a low off the same stance so it's not like seeing him go into the stance helps you react to it. that still doesn't make it a 17f overhead because he can only cancel into that overhead after 17f in his stance, making it a 34f overhead. More than enough time to react (jump out, dp or whatever) unlike other faster overheads
Justice7541 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 5C 2DA frametraps mashing and 5C 2BD frametraps mash and jump. It's not impossibly fast to get out of like random Rachel j.A overhead on dash-in but it's not a free mash out whenever you see him going into stance either. If your character doesn't have a meterless DP that he can't bait off a 2D you're just gonna have to sit and react.
Daedron Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Didn't she have a very unpractical combo that did over 10k damage with gold bursts in CSE She can do 11K in CP! I was just making a reference to CS2 where Tsu was shitting out 5K's off 2A in the corner.
FatalCounter Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) I will wait for Kagura changes before saying he has been nerfed. From notes he seems more solid. BTW 2DA is 16 + 17f = 33F but the same stance leads you to 2DB which is tricky and his 5C blockstun is amazing and lock you down for like 25F, 23F for 2C. Good luck if you want to block. If you are good Kagura player, you would never want to start your combo with 2DA because that means it gonna end soon (if no RC) and you can't do 5K or 6k except from the corner where you have choice for the switch side route, so.... 28C sticks on wall the corner now, which means many possibilties. 5DC sligtly moves forward which can be easy to get another combo route in the corner. 2DB will moves faster and the second is now lvl 5 which makes it safe!? (something from -9 to -6?). 2DA will be safe air stance cancellable and it might brings us a very interesting midscreen combo. 3C will now be safe or less punishable on block. His big nerf will be his 6A not normal cancellable and I am really sad (lol) but we still have all other oki. I might enjoy the new one. Eh and all his corner combos might work the same but a bit less damaging. Edited March 6, 2014 by FatalCounter
Airk Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I think tsubaki is probably not really nerfed now. probably pretty slightly improved, overall. same as other chars that were bad, minor changes Not sure; I suspect the damage hit on mugen combos is enough to keep her from really being 'improved'. A lot depends on how the changes to her projectile work out though.
TD Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 5C (1) > j.2D? The only thing the opponent has to do is block high after 5C (1) and he's done. Terumi can't cancel the first hit into a low anyway so it's piss easy to block his shit. 2C > j.2C is also really easy to see His only legit mixups require 50 meter There's more than just gatlings, you know. Because he has a good frametrap game, teru can do j2d as a link from many of his moves. 2a, 5b, 2b, 6b are all decent links into j2d when mixed with frametraps. There is also certain oki, particularly orochi and 6d thougj there is more, where he can do it as legit mixup. if some of his frametraps were stronger or more tight, he'd undoubtedly be higher ranked.
Luminos564 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I suppose you could argue that if Tsubaki is now worse off then ASW is trying to push people towards Izayoi more. But I guess nobody bothered to remind them that Izayoi is not exactly the better choice between the two to warrant that. IIRC she's still one of the most unexplored characters in the game. Nerfing Makoto even further however, makes very little sense to me. What, did Goro somehow clone himself and now there's thousands of Makoto players of his caliber running around? Geez, why can't they just bring her to CS1-status (minus the glitch that came with her)? I get that they don't want to repeat CS2, but somehow, I doubt this is the best possible way to deal with her.
Airk Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I suppose you could argue that if Tsubaki is now worse off then ASW is trying to push people towards Izayoi more. But I guess nobody bothered to remind them that Izayoi is not exactly the better choice between the two to warrant that. IIRC she's still one of the most unexplored characters in the game. Nerfing Makoto even further however, makes very little sense to me. What, did Goro somehow clone himself and now there's thousands of Makoto players of his caliber running around? Geez, why can't they just bring her to CS1-status (minus the glitch that came with her)? I get that they don't want to repeat CS2, but somehow, I doubt this is the best possible way to deal with her. I think they somehow feel that Tsubaki and Makoto are the "target" power level for the game, and are trying to nerf people downwards and doing it somewhat ineffectively. I don't really see any real 'nerfs' in Makoto's changelist though.
Yazumatto Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 There are only two good Makoto players and one of them used to be a Bang God. At this point, all you can do is shake your head and laugh.
AvariceX Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 I think they somehow feel that Tsubaki and Makoto are the "target" power level for the game, and are trying to nerf people downwards and doing it somewhat ineffectively. I don't really see any real 'nerfs' in Makoto's changelist though. Reduced untech time on j.B is definitely a bit of a nerf. It allows some pretty easy air-to-air relaunch confirms in its current state which will probably be going away (not to mention super-late-in-combo 6a jc.B djc.B xx Corona Upper...hopefully that at least survives). The new gatling into j.D at least means she won't be losing her corner BnB. 6B ground bounce is mostly a buff, but its current version allows forced emergency tech into comet cannon oki so she won't have a good way to force that anymore (I'd still rather be able to actually combo off of a 6b that they tried to chicken block, so yeah it is mostly a buff).
Dazardz Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Ugh, all these comments annoy me. People are saying they are nerfing the characters that need buffs. WHY ASW WHY! They better not nerf Nu too hard, because if Kagura becomes a failure, I'm turning to Nu! Some of you say that Kagura will 'still be alright', but not in my opinion. As well as the recovery of 5C being reduced, they also reduced HITSTUN, BLOCKSTUN and DAMAGE. Seriously they get rid of the 6A gatling? Was it the damage he got off of it. "2DA now cancels into air stances." Weeeee half of my combos fly down the drain! I don't think giving 3C knockback, giving his DP wallstick, giving ground throw a wallbounce, and giving his other super an OD version is good enough for those nerfs. I still don't have the full list yet though, so I won't give up...
Justice7541 Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Ugh, all these comments annoy me. People are saying they are nerfing the characters that need buffs. WHY ASW WHY! They better not nerf Nu too hard, because if Kagura becomes a failure, I'm turning to Nu! Some of you say that Kagura will 'still be alright', but not in my opinion. As well as the recovery of 5C being reduced, they also reduced HITSTUN, BLOCKSTUN and DAMAGE. Seriously they get rid of the 6A gatling? Was it the damage he got off of it. "2DA now cancels into air stances." Weeeee half of my combos fly down the drain! I don't think giving 3C knockback, giving his DP wallstick, giving ground throw a wallbounce, and giving his other super an OD version is good enough for those nerfs. I still don't have the full list yet though, so I won't give up... Someone's mad. 1) C change is fine. Recovery buff is big, hitstun change doesn't matter, blockstun nerf makes some stuff slightly less tight but that just means you should stop autopiloting 5C > 2DA. You'll live overall I think. 2) 6A gave 4k midscreen with orb oki, meterless, for a 22f overhead with a super subtle animation that you can obscure with orbs. What other character gets that off an overhead that good, meterless? Maybe, like, Tao, minus the oki? 3) 2DA cancels into air stance which means it can be air stance canceled, making it no longer hugely unsafe. That's a GOOD thing even though it means your combo route changes a bit. Overall Kagura gets better neutral (which he needs) and worse damage (which he has plenty of already). I don't see how that's a nerf.
Skye Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 One upon a time, excessive complaining about changes before release was a pretty bad offense, and for good reason, keep a lid on it, please. Understandably, everyone won't be pleased, but it's not the end of the world and not objectively the end of your character. Please wait for release and development in the meta game to complain at length, it's presumptuous to do so now.
Dazardz Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Ahaha, sorry. I should keep my complaining to a minimum, or save half of it for twitter.
TekkamanArk Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Someone's mad. 1) C change is fine. Recovery buff is big, hitstun change doesn't matter, blockstun nerf makes some stuff slightly less tight but that just means you should stop autopiloting 5C > 2DA. You'll live overall I think. 2) 6A gave 4k midscreen with orb oki, meterless, for a 22f overhead with a super subtle animation that you can obscure with orbs. What other character gets that off an overhead that good, meterless? Maybe, like, Tao, minus the oki? 3) 2DA cancels into air stance which means it can be air stance canceled, making it no longer hugely unsafe. That's a GOOD thing even though it means your combo route changes a bit. Overall Kagura gets better neutral (which he needs) and worse damage (which he has plenty of already). I don't see how that's a nerf. 1) Hitstun doesn't matter? What? How could it not matter? It makes the recovery part not matter, because, in the end, it means he still can't do anything with it that he couldn't before, and lost blockstun. 2) Not every character has to be the same though. He got the damage off a relatively slow (and not that ambiguous, despite what you're saying) overhead, and his thing kinda should be damage, since he's not going to be speeding around or anything. 3) 2DA cancels into air stance, which means you have to wait for him to drop from the sky to do any further combos, and if you do a followup from the air stance, it adds frames, making plenty of things just not work. This is an outright nerf. One upon a time, excessive complaining about changes before release was a pretty bad offense, and for good reason, keep a lid on it, please. Understandably, everyone won't be pleased, but it's not the end of the world and not objectively the end of your character. Please wait for release and development in the meta game to complain at length, it's presumptuous to do so now. Specifically for Kagura, I guess it's not quite as known. However, the stuff we currently know has frame data attached, which is plenty to base an informed opinion on. I understand keeping the peace, and you're right, not everyone will be happy, but it's not as if they can't make the adjustments with the frame data to what is currently on CP to see how it would turn out. Edited March 6, 2014 by TekkamanArk
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