[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[Verimeloni]

Did a little testing, some stuff you guys perhaps already know:

Overhead/low thing doesn't apply. I believe that in contradicting cases the charge has just ran out.

Ragna: Carnage Scissors and DbD can BOTH be punished with Valiant & Hornet. Carnage Scissors can be GP'd on reaction (meaning you see the emblem and Ragna shouts "Carnage") from a distance, let's say starting position + 1 back dash distance. DbD can be GP'd on reaction and punished even with max charge time (yay).

For specials Hornet is a nice ID bait if done while opponent techs after knockdown. Blood Scythe and Dead Spike can be both GP'd on reaction but BS is risky because of that move's crossup-ability. I'm guessing (yeah) Hell's Fang can be GP'd on reaction but I'm sure good Ragna players know that it's minus (-) on block so.

Hazama: Houtenjin can't be GP'd on reaction (surprise) but if people use it as a reversal the scenario's the same as with ID, but this time you can do Valiant as well. Rekkazan can be GP'd on reaction but isn't really effective because of the distance, you're better just using Growler (on reaction) to gain a stock.

Hakumen: Yukikaze is a no-no. If you hit Yukikaze with either Phalanx or 2C stone block just jump or back dash (extreme timing). Shippu can't be GP'd on reaction but from a distance the wave can be. With this one just stick to Growler, if someone's feeling risky enough to whip Shippu (on the sword hit distance), Growler on reaction will protect you/grant you a stock/push Hakumen back with CH.

[zeth07]

I've been away for the weekend and haven't had computer access to be able to type a response easily, but the main thing I wanted to say in regards to Valiant/Hornet frame data/discussion is "what you see is what you get". I can only confirm that's what the mook frame data says (and how it was translated at least), so there may or may not be mook errors which has happened before.

It should have full GP and only lose to throws/"unblockables" at least going by the mook. Anything that beats it out is probably just due to the move startup being faster than the guard point startup. Otherwise the mook data is wrong somewhere which is entirely plausible. Consider it more like a reasonable guess instead of cold hard facts, then you can test stuff out personally to see any differences (like some of you are).

I'd post a raw screencap of the mook and see if someone else wants to try and translate it differently, but considering the fact that there may be errors it kinda defeats the purpose.

[Tari]

Does anyone know why the wiki says Growler loses to throws? It clearly doesn't. You can throw him on what I'm guessing is just frame 11, but that's when his invuln changes to guardpoint anyway.

[zeth07]

There was a video where it looked like he got thrown out of it. So it appeared as if it had the same properties as Relius' Led Ley, so it was changed. Later it was confirmed otherwise back to what was already there in the frame data and I thought I changed it back but apparently I didn't......?

EDIT: Ok I did change it back, I just didn't edit the description of the move itself back to the way it was. Fixed.

Edited December 17, 2013 by zeth07

[Verimeloni]

New U. Azrael info, Scud now guard crushes on normal block.

[Ice Cube]

poor man's Love Phantom:

[uW] Forward Throw > earliest 236D > 6 > 5C > (6 > 5B) * 3 > 4 > 5B > 6 > 5B > 4 > 5B > (TC on some characters) > (Rapid for the lulz) > (Overdrive Activate for more lulz) > (Overdrive Scud / BHS whiff for maximum hype)

[uW] Forward Throw > earliest 236D > 6 > 5C > (6 > 5B) * 3 > 4 > 5B > 6 > 5B > 632146C (the astral input will auto dash cancel for you) > start mashing pause button to look at your opponent fly into the death pillar.

(another version: [uW] Forward Throw > earliest 236D > 6 > 5C > (6 > 5B) * 2 > 4 > 5B > 6 > 5B > 4 > 5B > 6 > 5B > 632146C, one more loop but might kill before astral).

Edited December 18, 2013 by Ice Cube

[LegendaryRath]

I'm trying to find a way to do Love Phantom into a real knockdown. My friend begs me to do them whenever I can, but I need them to be practical-ish.

[Nokita]

The nature of these guard points is very obscure indeed.

Based on my findings, I thought that 11-(active~7)GP means that the guard point starts from frame 11 (and it does, since it only very slightly loses to Jin's 10F 5C done at the same time and then 7 frames after that. Jin's 6C is 19F, since the GP on 236D is thus 18F, Jin's 6C will win. What is strange is the active~7. Based on what I've found, holding the button simply lengths the duration of the second (7F) part of the guard point. It does not add to it. As Jin's 6F 5A will beat 236D(charge) if he does 5A at the same time you let go of the button. If it had 7 frames of GP after, it would beat it, even rarely. But nope. never.

However, this isn't consistent. Especially when you bring Hornet into the mix.

Jin's Overhead is 19 Frames. By my theory, 236D should lose, but 214D should win since it's 10(active~12). However, 236D beats it clean, while 214D loses. What is strange is that 214D will almost ALWAYS lose to 6A UNLESS you charge it. Then the GP will always win. It's not simply a high thing either. Jin's 2C which is 17F produces the same result. 236D wins, 214D loses.

What a mysterious jogo.

Oh, and it does lose to Unblockables like Yukikaze. But that's in the wiki so that's fine.

Pretty sure that active~7f refers to the start up of the actual attack mid charge.

As in,Valiant is active in 7F after letting go of the button and hornet is active in 12F.

This should explain why Valiant wins against Jin's 6A while hornet loses if done at the same time.

The fastest valiant has 26F of start up.Take away the 7F for the actual attack to come out and you are left with 19F.

GP begins at frame 11 and goes on until frame 19 in this case.

Jin's 6A also has 19 frames of start up,so you end up winning.

The fastes hornet is done in 27F.27F - 12F= 15F

GP starts at frame 10 and goes on until frame 15.

You end up getting CH by anything that is slower then 15F but faster then 27f.

That's how I see it.

[Beautiful Death]

Not really. The 5B "wall" is used to grab the last active frames of the attack.

I don't feel like looking up frame data but I feel like I have a good idea what its going for so bear with me.

5B is extremely active (for a long duration of the move it is able to connect with the oppnent) and more importantly its active up through almost the entirety of its recovery.*** What this means is you throw the move out and hope to catch them with the last active frames. They either get caught, or you recover and are safe/able to start pressure. You do this when the opponent is in the air (dashing or falling) and you're goal is to get the opponent to fall onto your move after its already active. Either you win with a solid hitbox or trades and you may still be able to pick up off the counterhit. And because the move is active for so long it'll catch even baited anti-airs (like a plat that floats or an azrael that j.2CS to throw off your timing). (A lot of people use this to scare Tao's and Valks from flaying all over the screen looking for punishes. Note, its risky as hell on tao when she's grounded) Or you do it on the opponents wake up so that you hit with the very end of the move giving you frame advantage and working the same as a safe jump. (The move will hit them on their wake-up but if they try to punish/reversal you can block before their move goes active)

I think that first use will become less "useful" as people learn to abuse 2C and 6B more. Learning the timing to bait reversals is a good idea though.

ALSO

5b hits behind you, things it catches:

IZAYOI TELEPORT OMFG! <<<< she's in the air, throwing fireballs, about to tele behind you, preempt her with a 5B COUNTER, if not you should recover in time to move out of the way of the fireball or block before it gets to you.

koko tele

arakune tele

kagura cross-up

azrael dash

among other shit

9 7 10

9 startup 7 active 10 recovery either the wiki is wrong or you're wrong.

Also if a move's hitbox is still out.........then that is not "recovery." "Recovery" is when a moves hitbox is gone and you can't do anything. It's impossible for a move to be "active up through almost the entirety of its recovery" since if a move can still hit you then that is not recovery. Those are active frames. Just saying. (So yeah. Link's Nair from Melee actually has essentially ZERO recovery or something like that.)

[eSportsHero]

Thank you for the semantics, i figured people understood what I meant in regards to recovering. But I'm actually inclined to question that frame data. At the very least i feel there's a bigger potential active window than 7 frames. But I know its used often as a low risk limb to stick and leave out to catch people who like to approach from the air. I've had success baiting dps on wakeup with it, though maybe i'm just lucky. 10 frames seems like too big a discrepancy to "safejump"

[Lucalibur]

Honestly, the recovery is pretty short so sometimes it DOES feel like most of the active frames 'cover' the recovery ones, even though that is not how it works at all. 7 active frames is amazing, specially with that fat(albeit short ranged) hitbox, so if properly timed it can definitely beat a lot of things and still remain fairly safe.

[TheArm05]

Spent a while in training mode yesterday messing around with some of the stuff I learned from LegendaryRath's new combo video.

5C FC > CT > 623C > combo is SO MUCH damage. I didn't know we had enough time to dump on them after a CT. Honestly this starter is so efficient that with just UW on them I don't think it is worth it to OD anymore. Although double weakpoint 5C FC> CT > OD > 3D > combo is still the king of damage for Az.

That dump combo doesn't use up 3C,6A,or 2C either so it lets you do the optimal valiant corner extension.

Thanks for the vid LegendaryRath.

[Kriegdrache]

That's pretty sick, I just wish I could actually get sentinel instead of Tiger.

Bloody d-pad

actually does anyone have any tips? I usually do the 623 motion very slowly and hold down the 3 when I press C, but I usually take so long that I get blown up. Any suggestions?

Edited December 26, 2013 by Kriegdrache

[LegendaryRath]

Input priority in this version just plain sucks. You can go in training mode and input near perfect DP motions with input display on (something like 6323C) but depending on how long you delay when you press C, you'll get either Sentinel or Tiger. You could argue that it's my fault for not having perfect 623 motions, but that's still pretty dang close. Facing left I actually get 623 perfectly, but on the right I can't seem to ever not go past 3 again.

Persona has spoiled me with easy inputs and amazing input priority. A friend told me that you could pretty much use pretzel motions and the game would still know what you wanted.

edit: So if you're having trouble getting sentinel dump instead of tiger magnum, try delaying the C input after your DP motion a bit. It seems to work for me.

Edited December 26, 2013 by LegendaryRath

[Kriegdrache]

Alright, I'll give it a shot later. Ironically, whenever I want to raw tiger cannon for w/e reason, I'll get sentinel sometimes, I just can never win. At least i'm getting used to TCL a little now, still drop it from time to time but what can ya do? :/

Also, props for the CMV Rath, it was super cool. I love me some JoJos, so it was a treat. Dat 6A showcase was also rad, as I realised it could sponge so much stuff.

[Lucalibur]

Yeah, the CMV was great Rath. Good job.

[zeth07]

That's pretty sick, I just wish I could actually get sentinel instead of Tiger.

Bloody d-pad

actually does anyone have any tips? I usually do the 623 motion very slowly and hold down the 3 when I press C, but I usually take so long that I get blown up. Any suggestions?

Input priority in this version just plain sucks. You can go in training mode and input near perfect DP motions with input display on (something like 6323C) but depending on how long you delay when you press C, you'll get either Sentinel or Tiger. You could argue that it's my fault for not having perfect 623 motions, but that's still pretty dang close. Facing left I actually get 623 perfectly, but on the right I can't seem to ever not go past 3 again.

Persona has spoiled me with easy inputs and amazing input priority. A friend told me that you could pretty much use pretzel motions and the game would still know what you wanted.

edit: So if you're having trouble getting sentinel dump instead of tiger magnum, try delaying the C input after your DO motion a bit. It seems to work for me.

It's not so much the game as it is specifically for Azrael (and few other characters). I made a video showing this "problem" and how it doesn't affect Jin but the exact same inputs cause problems for Azrael. Someone tested it for all the applicable characters and their reasoning was that the priority is different for characters that require the use of some resource as a function of those moves so that you don't screw them up. That doesn't make sense to me because that should be applied across the board since no one wants to screw up inputs.

As for any tips on doing it, you really just need to do the input "correctly" and one of the things you can do to help is consciously tell yourself you need to do this input perfectly as you're doing it instead of just using muscle memory and not even thinking. Normally when I'm doing stuff I'm not actually thinking of the inputs since you do them so much in training mode you don't need to. But when you need to be precise I think helps to have it in your head that you're doing it so you are more methodical about it. If that makes sense, lol.

[Kriegdrache]

Yeah, that actually makes sense, I often tell myself "dont fuck up!" whenever I'm trying to do Valk [x]D > D > h movements, especially 2D > D > 2C.

I just gotta be not shit and actually do DPs properly I guess! Thanks guys!

[Yazumatto]

When I was doing the challenge mission a while back where you had to do raw Sentinel, it took me much longer than I wanted it to because of that input priority issue. My 623 motion is clean most of the time on the P1 side, but it's sloppy on the P2 side (4214, etc.). I never really found a need to use non-22C Sentinel though so it didn't affect me too much.

Then again, I should work on them now since I get a good number of 5C fatals normally. The damage I got from trying that 5C FC CT Dump -> combo (when I got the dump to come out anyway) is just divine.

EDIT: just watched Rath's sweet combo video. 6A is amazing.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Yazumatto

[LegendaryRath]

Also, props for the CMV Rath, it was super cool. I love me some JoJos, so it was a treat. Dat 6A showcase was also rad, as I realised it could sponge so much stuff.

Thanks It was funny recording clips for the 6A thing. Instead of clashing, it often just beat things instead, including magna tech wheel, inferno divider, and Arakune's super.

There's a punish with 3D I found that does 7300-ish damage and builds most of the meter it uses. I can record it later tonight probably.

[natearistata]

A tip I got for something similar while doing challenges (Ragna has the same problem on the ground, just kept getting dead spike instead of D inferno divider) was to hold whatever you're using (d-pad, stick, whatever) in the corner after the motion instead of returning it to neutral until the move comes out. Gotten D ID and sentinel dump around 95% of the time since whenever I do that.

[Kriegdrache]

Yeah, I was still having trouble with sentinel dump, got it a few times though.

Anyway, tried the 5C > CT starter in a game, accidently got 3C instead of DP for some reason, rolled with it and hit 6k.

Jesus. I know it's probably not an optimal route, but for 75 meter, I wasn't complaining.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Kriegdrache
My grammar is terrible

[Natsu]

Um so lately I find myself having a hard time getting out defensive situation with Azrael, espicially on the corners.

When's possible I do Instant Block and then DP, but it does not work all the time.

So what so do you guys do when you get into defensive situation? Or is that Azrael lacks tools of getting out of defensive situation

Sent from my Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk

[natearistata]

backdash x 20

[Eternal Blaze]

backdash/growler/IB/CA/Scud/Valiant are your "defensive options". Last 2 are super situational but they can be useful against predictable opponents/super slow moves.