[Xrd] Slayer Gameplay Discussion

[Angry Guy of DE]

So this is something that has been driving me nuts on the wiki.  Bite is stated to do 72 on the wiki where it does 48 on Sol at full health.  If the information is true in the loketests the bite will do almost double and if the wiki is correct heals the same amount Slayer will be healing 90 before guts and defense modifier.

If this remains true some combos might be more useful on a standing opponent to YRC 5H > bite since 5H leaves them in a stagger to let bite combo.

This will makes BDC bite really strong when Slayer could potentially heal 90 damage with a bite on bad pressure or unsafe normals.

[tortoos]

Looking at frames if you play against Chip/Sol the only 2 characters with 3F normals that I know of you have 1F window for blowing it up.

If they press on IL Startup 12F they'll get hit since it will trade on 15F. But you can still be grabbed on 14F (throw OS).

And there are a number of characters with 4F normal like Ram, I-No, Elph, probably more. For these it's a 2F window and vs 5F normals it's 3F window. 

But in reality you can add 1F on each of these since if you trade it will always be in our favour.

My point is just if you look at the raw data and crunch numbers it's actually not that big of a window that you actually "need" to hit.

Though if the person you are playing know the first thing about Slayer and risk vs reward pressing buttons vs IL (except after blocked UP) is not a good idea.

That's essentially what I was agreeing to and why I was saying I don't get thrown out of it much anymore. If you managed to hit your opponent once or twice with IL CH the mere prospect of potentially taking upwards of 50% from it scares most people to the point where they stop trying to grab it. I find for most people I play, it usually only takes one or two times of that counter hit happening before they stop going for throws on iL at all because as you said, the risk/reward is so tremendously skewed in slayer's favor it's just better to try and block it.

[daymendou]

So this is something that has been driving me nuts on the wiki. Bite is stated to do 72 on the wiki where it does 48 on Sol at full health.

Note that it says 0, 72 damage. The RISC value is 26, 0 so the damage will be lower in most cases. Both normal throws lower RISC by 6, 0, so ground throw goes from 68 to 60.

The good thing is stun damage doesn't seem to be affected by RISC. 25% more stun on Bite and DOT dealing stun damage might be a good combination.

[magz]

Loke Test 2 changes:

 

5p - 2s gattling added.

 

5k - Initial hit prorate from 85% to 90%.

 

5h - Stagger time increased.

 

2h - Increased horizontal hitbox. Increased untechable time.

 

2d - Vertical hitbox increased.

 

j.h - Removed initial hit prorate.

 

6p - Horizontal knockback increased on CH which makes wall bounce easier. Added 90% initial hit prorate.

 

6k - Landing recovery from 7f to 5f. Damage increased from 22 to 30. Initial hit prorate from 80% to 90%.

 

Bite - Damage increase from 72 to 90. increased plus frames after bite. Increased pushback distance after bite. RCs performed after the startup frames are now purple RCs.

 

Pilebunker - Added hitstop to opponent on CH.

 

P Dandy -> Pilebunker - Increased rush distance. Counter hit changed to wall bounce. Damage reduced from 80 to 70. Thing about counter hit during recovery. Added 90% initial hit prorate.

 

K Dandy -> Pilebunker - Normal hit causes wall stick. Forced prorate set to 70%. Forced prorate set to 90%. RISC level reduction value increased from 6 to 10. Thing about counter hit during recovery.

 

Helter Skelter - Reduced jump height after movement.

 

Undertow - Increased untech time, easier to get a knockdown.

 

DOT - Hitstop added. Dizzy power changed from 0 to 70. Increased rush distance. Recovery frames increased from 31 to 39.

 

Forward Dash - Increased momentum maintained from forward dash cancel into jump.

 

Air Tech - Fixed bug where air tech invuln was shorter than other characters.

 

Aerial Hurtbox - Modified.

[Wirya]

Super awesome changes.

Loke Test 2 changes:

j.h - Removed initial hit prorate.

Makes all the sense in the world. It no longer bounces on CH, so why should it prorate?

[Koover]

DOT - Hitstop added. Dizzy power changed from 0 to 70. Increased rush distance. Recovery frames increased from 31 to 39.

Yessss. DoT range was pitiful before.The dizzy power is a nice addition too.

[Wirya]

K Dandy -> Pilebunker - Forced prorate set to 70%. Forced prorate set to 90%.

Dude, what the heck is this?

[RoBoBOBR]

Loketest 1 had 214KP have Forced prorate at 70%, now it's 90%.

[fogelstrom]

I... I... I don't know what to say. It's beautiful.
If all of these changes were final I would be really happy with Slayer without going into stupid wish-listing.
j.H prorate removed? Thank god.
Forward momentum retained when jumping canceling any forward dash and not just long dash? This is what I get from reading the changed and that's extremely welcomed. Going to be easier to move around quickly.
Better prorate on 5K. Not much but it's still more dmg from 5K, Mappa, RC combos.

I really hope console doesn't get shafted for ~half a year like they do on BlazBlue series.
 

[SuperJ]

ac 2h hitbox with xrd anchor-in-corner effect... :DDDD

[koufdell]

can someone tell me dot hitstop effect? will it allow easier combos with RRC? thx

[CounterHit-DOT]

If the jump height is reduced after the Helter Skelter, that means that I will be much easier to connect the j.HS j.D ~land 5K  Mappa on pretty much every one in the cast right?

[fogelstrom]

If the jump height is reduced after the Helter Skelter, that means that I will be much easier to connect the j.HS j.D ~land 5K  Mappa on pretty much every one in the cast right?

You won't be needing j.HD at all probably. Helter Skelter j.H, stuff, 2D will probably be alot easier.

Slayer getting lower altitude however will not make May's or Faust's hitbox higher. We might be able to hit them before the hitstun runs out this time around with some luck. Also on blocked Helter Skelter it will probably be harder for people to punish as well. I assume they wanted to make the move more useful and used.

[drobizzle]

Or maybe they should just give him his old move back.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CounterHit-DOT]

Yeah and that was needed. It was like "Hey Slayer players, we nerfed a little bit your favorite character, but look at this amazing toy we gave you, its very fun lol, you can jump behind your opponent and make a hit, but this is not overhead nonewhatsoever, and it can hardly lead to knockdown or good damages, oh and don't forgetn you won't be able to combo it against a 1/3 of the Cast, have fun bye!"

 

Concerning the recovery reduction on the 6K, I can't figure it out if its gonna be a real buff or not. What we desperately need is to be be able to link someting after 6K, even it doesn't lead to a 2D and a Knockdown like old times.

[fogelstrom]

"Hey Slayer players, we nerfed a little bit your favorite character, but look at this amazing toy we gave you, its very fun lol, you can jump behind your opponent and make a hit, but this is not overhead nonewhatsoever, and it can hardly lead to knockdown or good damages, oh and don't forgetn you won't be able to combo it against a 1/3 of the Cast, have fun bye!"

Dno what you are smoking but Helter Skelter is way better than what you are making it out to be.

There is 0 characters you can't combo against BUT you have to hit Helter Meaty on late frames to hit j.H combo on Faust and May. I've done it loads of time. If you learn the single j.H timing on characters you can get j.H, c.S, f.S, 2D or j.H, 2K, 2D. Character specific but still.

I don't have damage on hand but at least Helter Skelter doesn't have any Forced Prorate and you can link DHD on normal hit on the whole cast. If you have 100% meter you can even link DoT from DHD stagger to lock out burst completely. Or you can go c.S, j.D, DHD, c.S, f.S, 2D/Mappa (character specific as well obivously).

 

I don't think Slayer desperatly needs to be able to link anything from 6K. Obviously it would be nice if he could but I can understand how they reason with 6K since it has retained feint properties but throw tech has been removed. Since this is a throw game.

 

[Wirya]

Concerning the recovery reduction on the 6K, I can't figure it out if its gonna be a real buff or not. What we desperately need is to be be able to link someting after 6K, even it doesn't lead to a 2D and a Knockdown like old times.

If you can link 2K or c.S after it, then it leads to 2D and a knockdown. Duh.

[fogelstrom]

Yeah but he might have meant that 6K would put you far away enough for not getting c.S and 2K being to slow. Then your options would be 2P/5P and just maybe 2S, 2D would be possible then. I don't think the theorizing is even necessary since I don't think they'll make it possible to link stuff after it but making it + on block or +-0 would at least make it have any use at all. Since atm the only use it has at this moment is to steal wins of people with very low hp that will die from the single hit.

[Twerk4Dakids]

Yeah but he might have meant that 6K would put you far away enough for not getting c.S and 2K being to slow. Then your options would be 2P/5P and just maybe 2S, 2D would be possible then. I don't think the theorizing is even necessary since I don't think they'll make it possible to link stuff after it but making it + on block or +-0 would at least make it have any use at all. Since atm the only use it has at this moment is to steal wins of people with very low hp that will die from the single hit.

 

I don't agree with this at all. 6K is still a very good tool. An overhead is an overhead. You can use it to force people into doing what you want with it by blowing them up with it.

[fogelstrom]

There is a reason for 6K to almost never be used by Taka and Hase. It's simply because it has barely any uses. There is no reason to use 6K for overhead purposes when you have dust and It's Late. If you use it in your play and it works for you I'm not gonna tell you not to use it. But it has more or less zero use in my play. I don't see how anyone would "fear" getting hit by a 6K. It's 22dmg and I don't know the frames on crouching/standing hit but even if you get combo from it still has 80% forced proration as well that isn't in no way warranted.
 

You could say that I'm just a hypocrite going on about how Helter Skelter is valuable but I just don't see any value in 6K.

 

[SuperJ]

more thoughts on the changes.

 

- 5H-2D stagger should be harder to mash out at max distance. guaranteed 5H xx pile would be fabulous at footsie range, in conjunction with the extra range on 214PP! but i wonder if arcsys is that generous.. if 5H-j.2K works, that could open up some interesting punishes: 5H-j.2K, j.K-D, c.S, etc.

 

- extra untech on 2H means c.S won't black beat after an extended corner confirm into [RC 5D, stuff, 5H-2H]. should also mean corner 2H, 5K is possible. sick!

 

- i wonder if the proration buff on j.H will stick? j.H still has top-class priority.

 

- you should be able to meaty 6K into c.S on wakeup now. good. also gives 6K feint some bite, since you'll want to meaty this on wakeup anyways.

 

with the 6K change, you are +4 on hit against most crouchers. an extra 1F decrease on the recovery will let you link c.S. i think arcsys is trying really hard not to make this happen, hence the dmg/proration buffs. doubt arcsys will relent

 

in my dreams, what i'd also like to see is a buff to 6K's lower body invul, so it beats or ch's 2P/2K mash. may can 6K over stun edge ffs.

 

- rip os bite. i hope the stagger increase is enough that you can confirm the RC instead of assuming you won't whiff and doing the RC asap.

 

- i hope more people experiment with the 214KP wall stick. in 1.0, you can get CH 214PP near the center of the stage, RC iad footloose and still get the wallstick - i bet something similar can be done here. you could potentially have corner-to-corner combos by landing 214KP on an airborne opponent lol. ofc this is assuming 214KP has enough untech time

 

i wonder what combos you can get off a 214KP whiff punish? like corner 214KP, 5H-2H would be really nasty. maybe with the right spacing you can get 214KP x2? o_O

 

- i really hope that dash buff means forward momentum off short dash jump. huge qol improvement if so

[koufdell]

more thoughts on the changes.

 

- 5H-2D stagger should be harder to mash out at max distance. guaranteed 5H xx pile would be fabulous at footsie range, in conjunction with the extra range on 214PP! but i wonder if arcsys is that generous.. if 5H-j.2K works, that could open up some interesting punishes: 5H-j.2K, j.K-D, c.S, etc.

 

- extra untech on 2H means c.S won't black beat after an extended corner confirm into [RC 5D, stuff, 5H-2H]. should also mean corner 2H, 5K is possible. sick!

 

- i wonder if the proration buff on j.H will stick? j.H still has top-class priority.

 

- you should be able to meaty 6K into c.S on wakeup now. good. also gives 6K feint some bite, since you'll want to meaty this on wakeup anyways.

 

with the 6K change, you are +4 on hit against most crouchers. an extra 1F decrease on the recovery will let you link c.S. i think arcsys is trying really hard not to make this happen, hence the dmg/proration buffs. doubt arcsys will relent

 

in my dreams, what i'd also like to see is a buff to 6K's lower body invul, so it beats or ch's 2P/2K mash. may can 6K over stun edge ffs.

 

- rip os bite. i hope the stagger increase is enough that you can confirm the RC instead of assuming you won't whiff and doing the RC asap.

 

- i hope more people experiment with the 214KP wall stick. in 1.0, you can get CH 214PP near the center of the stage, RC iad footloose and still get the wallstick - i bet something similar can be done here. you could potentially have corner-to-corner combos by landing 214KP on an airborne opponent lol. ofc this is assuming 214KP has enough untech time

 

i wonder what combos you can get off a 214KP whiff punish? like corner 214KP, 5H-2H would be really nasty. maybe with the right spacing you can get 214KP x2? o_O

 

- i really hope that dash buff means forward momentum off short dash jump. huge qol improvement if so

thx for the tip ....for ch pilebunker rc to get the wall stick

[Twerk4Dakids]

There is a reason for 6K to almost never be used by Taka and Hase. It's simply because it has barely any uses. There is no reason to use 6K for overhead purposes when you have dust and It's Late. If you use it in your play and it works for you I'm not gonna tell you not to use it. But it has more or less zero use in my play. I don't see how anyone would "fear" getting hit by a 6K. It's 22dmg and I don't know the frames on crouching/standing hit but even if you get combo from it still has 80% forced proration as well that isn't in no way warranted.

 

You could say that I'm just a hypocrite going on about how Helter Skelter is valuable but I just don't see any value in 6K.

 

Fair enough. Its not about using it for pure damage, its used as a tool for making people do what you want. If you get a meaty CH you can always link it. Looking at a tool and deciding that it's shit because it doesn't lead to damage isn't something I'd do when I look at a character. 

[Wirya]

Honestly, Xrd Slayer's 6K isn't shit. It's just that if you compare it to, say, Elphelt's overhead then yeah it will look like shit.

[fogelstrom]

Fair enough. Its not about using it for pure damage, its used as a tool for making people do what you want. If you get a meaty CH you can always link it. Looking at a tool and deciding that it's shit because it doesn't lead to damage isn't something I'd do when I look at a character. 

I did some number crunching. I can only see 6K as +4 if you hit the last active frame wich means you can't ever link it.

You got any footage of it?

If you could link of meaty 6K it would be useful but I can't see it possible frame wise. I sat down in training trying to do it but never got a link once. First attempt on It's Late meaty setup. I just don't see why 6K would ever be better than It's Late in pretty much any situation. But then again I can't link it.