[CP] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[skd]

ah thanks i was hoping i'd be able to go calamity trigger mode and spam 22c in combo's but it makes sense. How does smp dmg work now does it prorate regularly and only untech gets shafted or does everything get hit?

as far as i know, damage is unaffected. SMP only affects combo time.

[Kurushii]

as far as i know, damage is unaffected. SMP only affects combo time.

Correct, P1 and P2 are the only factors to effect damage scaling. SMP and Starter Rating are what we have to worry about for combo length. :3

[KayEff]

Just curious, how did you calculate this? Did dash cancel data change?

lemme explain then.

so ragna's dead spike is a total duration of 57F. this only pertains to ragna himself, which includes his startup animation and all the frames after that. subtracting his startup from the total duration, we get 31F of "recovery" (i say "recovery" because it's not actual recovery).

take the example we don't do any dash cancel. the hitstop for dead spike is 12F, and the blockstun is 18F. add them together, and you get about 30F of the opponent not being able to do anything. in the mean time, ragna is still going through his animation, despite the opponent not being able to do anything. if you compute the static difference between the two timeframes, you'll see that the opponent recovers 1F before ragna, hence the -1.

now onto the situation where ragna dash cancels. let's assume ragna is able to dash immediately after the first active frame has passed. dash cancel is 22F, so the earliest dash cancel would make the total duration 26 + 1 + 22 = 49F. we can neglect the startup time since it doesn't pertain to the opponent's blockstun at all. by doing this, we get 23F of ragna going through his animation, compared to the 31F that we had before. simple math tells us that ragna gains 8 frames from this, and adding this number to our previous -1 gets +7. however, for the sake of the argument, i will explain this by taking the opponent's hitstop and blockstun into account.

we said before that the opponent is unable to move for 30F due to both hitstop and blockstun. at the same time this happens, ragna's 23F duration of both the active frame and the dash cancel begins as well (we count the active frame because it happens at the same time as the blockstun starts). following the frames as they go, you'll see that ragna is able to move seven frames before the opponent.

i don't know if i can give a better explanation than this, but it should sufficiently cover your concern.

[LuminAbyss]

i don't know if i can give a better explanation than this, but it should sufficiently cover your concern.

Ooh, I forgot to take hitstop into account. But damn, that does sound too good to be true, a +7 move. Imagine hitting on the last active frame while dash cancelling.

[Cheefoo]

Wasn't hitstop reduced all across the board? Is that 12f taking that into account?

I've never heard of this "starter rating" thing before. Is it a new value that every attack has? I thought I heard somewhere that "combo time" was affected by the starter's button strength: A being the shortest, D being the longest. Is that just a "general rule" or are all starter ratings based solely on the button strength?

With all these nerfs to Ragna's untech on BE, DS etc. will he even be able to combo long enough to have to worry about combo time?

Edited April 5, 2013 by Cheefoo

[skd]

Wasn't hitstop reduced all across the board? Is that 12f taking that into account?

I've never heard of this "starter rating" thing before. Is it a new value that every attack has? I thought I heard somewhere that "combo time" was affected by the starter's button strength: A being the shortest, D being the longest. Is that just a "general rule" or are all starter ratings based solely on the button strength?

With all these nerfs to Ragna's untech on BE, DS etc. will he even be able to combo long enough to have to worry about combo time?

starter rating is a new value, yes. Combo time is not strictly dictated by the buttons strength, its just that A attacks are often given the F (FAST) rating, while most other normals are given the N (NORMAL) rating. Not to say that other attacks cant have the F rating, its just that its generally associate that way.

That description based on button strength was probably just intended to poise the system in such a way that it would be easy for other people to understand while giving the concept behind starter rating (you could say a lot of very fast/invin attacks have F rating, which usually include A attacks). It's not a rule, just a misleading description.

starter ratings arent based on any other factor aside from their judgment. there isnt a rule about them!

and blood kain combos bro! but yeah for the most part hitting that 820f(- starter) limit is kinda tough for ragna haha

also about hitstop, if you calculate the hitstop based off of static difference and blockstun/recovery (which are supplied by the mook) you shouldnt run into any problems if it was changed (i think)

Edited April 5, 2013 by not_lunaris

[Ctrlaltwtf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjuVvvEtS4#t=2h04m45s

this is the most ragna-like corner pressure i've ever seen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjuVvvEtS4#t=2h07m10s

Ogod you can't deny 5B. I lol'd

[KayEff]

Wasn't hitstop reduced all across the board? Is that 12f taking that into account?

yes

[Fluck]

I think the mook is missing the extra hitstop that the move applies to the opponent and not Ragna. It's probably something like 12F of hitstop to the opponent with 0 to Ragna. Since 18+12 would cover 30 of his 31F of recovery making it -1 on block.

Thanks, Spark.

As KF has said, this makes DS extremely scary and a potential monster of a move. Very interesting.

[LuminAbyss]

WE ACTUALLY HAVE A GUARANTEED PRESSURE RESETTER.

DUUUUUUUUUDE.

Imagine using this on characters without DPs.

[YukiBlue]

Shoutouts to Bang

[InWithTheAshes]

... Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjuVvvEtS4#t=2h07m10s

Ogod you can't deny 5B. I lol'd

Does any - body know who this guy is? Whoever, that and the DP pressure was absolutely hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyjuVvvEtS4#t=2h06m26s

6B is best footsie. Got bursted, yes, but at that point I think they were just tired of eating idiocy.

Actually, just go look through - out all his matches. I mean, I know the Makoto seems pretty average, but it's rather amusing when they keep trying legitimate tactics and it's steamrolled consistently by wild abandon.

Edited April 6, 2013 by InWithTheAshes

[Lucalibur]

This dude is crazy. Like, he is absolutely insane and it's amazing. We need to know who the player is, I need more of that.

[MashThat5A]

why? he's not good

[InWithTheAshes]

No, but he is still amusing. He's notable within that.

Of course, the translator's have better things to do than reveal the name of one guy who isn't particularly skilful and I don't have a right to demand any - thing from them, but I'd like to know any - way.

[StarGazer]

Come on, sure that Makoto isn't Goro level but still he was really good

[Tong]

ah thanks i was hoping i'd be able to go calamity trigger mode and spam 22c in combo's but it makes sense. How does smp dmg work now does it prorate regularly and only untech gets shafted or does everything get hit?

It won't ruin damage, but they will insta-tech out of the combo, putting you at disvantage.

[MashThat5A]

so, i've seen 22C > dead spike > 2C not work, but 22C > dead spike > dash cancel 2C work. so at the very least there is some difference if you decide to cancel. worst case scenario we're even, but since that's when we use it at point blank that's still really good.

[psycofang2]

but it's rather amusing when they keep trying legitimate tactics and it's steamrolled consistently by wild abandon.

thats what i enjoy the most about him, hes shitting on legit play because hes not playing by the same ground rules, which is catching them off guard. its funny.

[WolfCrimson]

@Ragna Mods: Can we (non-mods/denizens/street urchins) fill out Ragna's frame data, or is that job reserved for mods only? I've basically set up the tables, but I haven't put in any data yet since I'm not sure if we're allowed to do that.

[Skye]

Not to answer in the place of the fine gentleman who runs this sub forum and kayeff, but they are translating the full details, so it will be up in full soon enough.

The staff are working on new templates to put the new cp data in, so hold up a sec so they can finish the behind the scene details.

[WolfCrimson]

I don't think there is any more to Ragna's frame data than what was posted by KF in that excel spreadsheet.

And the new templates are already up, I think since 2 days ago. I don't know if they're just draft templates or the finalized version, though.

Edit: Something I noticed about the mook (from what KF provided) which I think might be a mistake: Grounded BS has "all" in the guard column i.e. it's not an overhead.

Edited April 8, 2013 by WolfCrimson

[KayEff]

@Ragna Mods: Can we (non-mods/denizens/street urchins) fill out Ragna's frame data, or is that job reserved for mods only? I've basically set up the tables, but I haven't put in any data yet since I'm not sure if we're allowed to do that.

anyone who has access to the wiki tables is able to, but for this job it's best to have the mods do it. however it's up to the mods really.

for me, i was thinking of having FU do them for me. (i hope that's not a problem!)

also the mook has loads of mistakes, so don't trust everything you see in the data

Edited April 8, 2013 by KayEff

[Fistmaster049]

Grounded BS has "all" in the guard column i.e. it's not an overhead.

wait BS isn't an overhead?

[Skye]

also the mook has loads of mistakes, so don't trust everything you see in the data

Ahem.