[CP] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[Callisto]

it's hard to pull off because you need to force the opponent to not press any buttons, which is not as easy as it sounds.

I do this by doing the TRM setups that most people know, then just ID'ing where the throw would be lol

[crimsonstardust]

So I got some questions about spacing and coverting the hits. So I have a tendency when I'm playing the neutral and get a hit to do 5B 5C HF RC 6C and do the rest of the combo off a jump cancel, I do know this probably isn't optimal but if I'm hitting at or near the tip of 5B gattling into 5C, is Ragna close enough to use 2D instead? There's been a lot of times where I feel like I could of gotten more damage of my RC but missed out on it cause I used HF instead just cause I wasn't sure if 2D can it from the 5B->5C at max range.

[KayEff]

2D is long enough to land in most instances. the only case where it would not land would be if 5C hit at its extreme tip.

[Cheefoo]

^ learned something today. Then yea I guess just mash dp again or something like j.c

 

Mash DP with 623C6323C6C32C363C23C6C. It's the perfect option select. Afraid you might misinput or mis-time the 623 motion? Think again, with the frame buffer and the flawless input-mind-reading system (the game knows you want to DP essentially) you'll get frame perfect reversals every time. Clashed with something? You'll just do another DP. Hit with the DP? You'll just follow up with a straight punch. Got blocked? Think again, inferno divider is unblockable. 9 frame startup YOU CAN'T REACT TO THAT SHIT.

You want actually the opposite, because a gapless blockstring means they won't get punished for mashing (no gap = their moves dont even come out = no frametrap).

2A> 2C is a better option because it doubles as a frametrap and pressure reset. Not to mention he has many more options after 2C.

 

Remember that blockstrings have an intrinsic rock-paper-scissors to them, and leaving gaps isn't always the best way to go about things. Mashing beats slow resets, frametraps beat mashing, and DPs beat frametraps. Also DPs beat slow resets. What beats DPs? baiting them a better DP

If they are mashing hard you can always go 2B-5B. There's no gap, even on instant-block so im sure you can catch some. There is also good old 2C-5C-2D. Just remember that if they block the 2D you are put back to neutral, since its -4 on block.

 

I love me some 5C>2D because of how much I catch people up-backing when they see 5C. But the shitty thing is, 2D doesn't get you shit unless you predict that it hits and RC for a combo (unless someone can hitconfirm a normal hit 2D into RC>5C WHICH I WOULD LIKE TO SEE). Normal hit knocks them down, and unless you're right on top of them (which should never be the case when you're in a 2D friendly scenario) they can just ROLL BACK FOR FREE.

 

I really wish 2D was dash cancellable. It would actually leave him at exactly the same frame advantage (2D recovery and Ragna's DC are both 22 frames) but it would give him the chance to actually maintain some kind of pressure after a 2D hit. CP 1.2 hype woo make it happen.

[Myoro]

So A friend of mine wants to get strong enough to fight me but only has CSE on the PSP, are are there any sort of high level Neutral tricks, Combos, blockstrings, Mix-up, or Oki tricks that I can teach him of that are shared between both games? The more you all come up with, the better, so please post anything that comes to mind. Even in CSE he's not incredibly practiced with Ragna.

 

Many Thanks for any consideration or posts ^_^

[Koga_Noid]

So A friend of mine wants to get strong enough to fight me but only has CSE on the PSP, are are there any sort of high level Neutral tricks, Combos, blockstrings, Mix-up, or Oki tricks that I can teach him of that are shared between both games? The more you all come up with, the better, so please post anything that comes to mind. Even in CSE he's not incredibly practiced with Ragna.

 

Many Thanks for any consideration or posts ^_^

There's a thread titled "The Funny Things I do with Ragna" that I looked into back when I first started CP. Not sure how much of it still works but it's still on the forums.

[crimsonstardust]

So A friend of mine wants to get strong enough to fight me but only has CSE on the PSP, are are there any sort of high level Neutral tricks, Combos, blockstrings, Mix-up, or Oki tricks that I can teach him of that are shared between both games? The more you all come up with, the better, so please post anything that comes to mind. Even in CSE he's not incredibly practiced with Ragna.

 

Many Thanks for any consideration or posts ^_^

Well Ragna's neutral is practically the same most of his normals I believe are about the same ranges, one of the biggest things that threw me off when I migrates to CP is how 6B lost a large majority of its gattling so I had to get accustomed to using 5D or 6A cause of that. There are some gimmicks I think that can work like GH RC air dash jC > jD. I do not know if this will work in CSEX but your friend might be able to practice IAD ID for cross ups but like I said I do not know if this works in CSEX.

[Cheefoo]

The wiki's example for Ragna's lifesteal multiplier seems to imply that 5D's two hits only progress the soul eater rate by one attack, despite hitting twice, while 623D progresses it by two, one per hit. Is this a case-by-case differentiation, or is the wiki just wrong? I always assumed that multiple hit soul eater moves would progress the multiplier by the number of hits (which would explain why OD carnage scissors ticks it forward five times). It's pretty minor but it's driving me crazy!

[KayEff]

the first hit of 5D isn't a soul eater attack.

[Final Ultima]

The same thing applies to the first hit of Carnage Scissors, for future reference. A move that steals life doesn't necessarily steal it during every hit.

[Cheefoo]

Oh, interesting. I always thought 5D's first hit had a lifesteal effect. The wiki says, "For example, using 5D (200 drain) then D Inferno Divider (50*2 drain) will result in less lifesteal (292 drain) than with 5D's and D Inferno Divider's lifesteal base values added together (300 drain)." Then it goes on to say 5D has only 100 lifesteal later on, so I was doubly certain it hit twice with 100 lifesteal both times.

 

Unrelated musings/questions on GH:

 

If the opponent blocks a 5C and holds up-back-barrier, wouldn't a GH technically be safe on block? It's normally -11 on block, and air barrier would add 3 blockstun so it would be -8. How much time would it take them to land, and would it be enough for you to hazard a dash 5B? Additionally, due to GH's hitbox actually taking a few active frames to normally reach a grounded opponent, would reaching them earlier due to them being slightly off the ground further his frame disadvantage to a noticeable point?

 

When should TK GH be used over the grounded version? Like, when does it actually reach the opponent to function as an overhead vs crouching? Does anyone know exactly how minus it is on block, and how much that could vary depending on spacing/opponent's hitbox, if at all?

 

I know GH is unsafe, not very rewarding and one of the easier overheads to block, but it seems like it could be a decent way of preventing jumpouts if you can catch them low enough to the ground that they don't have any air good normals that could come out before they land, but high enough that they won't land until you've mostly recovered. But could such a sweetspot exist?

[Final Ultima]

Oh, interesting. I always thought 5D's first hit had a lifesteal effect. The wiki says, "For example, using 5D (200 drain) then D Inferno Divider (50*2 drain) will result in less lifesteal (292 drain) than with 5D's and D Inferno Divider's lifesteal base values added together (300 drain)." Then it goes on to say 5D has only 100 lifesteal later on, so I was doubly certain it hit twice with 100 lifesteal both times.

 

Oh, I never noticed that. I'll go fix it now.

[floatwater]

Unrelated musings/questions on GH:

 

If the opponent blocks a 5C and holds up-back-barrier, wouldn't a GH technically be safe on block? It's normally -11 on block, and air barrier would add 3 blockstun so it would be -8. How much time would it take them to land, and would it be enough for you to hazard a dash 5B? Additionally, due to GH's hitbox actually taking a few active frames to normally reach a grounded opponent, would reaching them earlier due to them being slightly off the ground further his frame disadvantage to a noticeable point?

 

When should TK GH be used over the grounded version? Like, when does it actually reach the opponent to function as an overhead vs crouching? Does anyone know exactly how minus it is on block, and how much that could vary depending on spacing/opponent's hitbox, if at all?

 

I know GH is unsafe, not very rewarding and one of the easier overheads to block, but it seems like it could be a decent way of preventing jumpouts if you can catch them low enough to the ground that they don't have any air good normals that could come out before they land, but high enough that they won't land until you've mostly recovered. But could such a sweetspot exist?

Using GH to catch jumpouts is a terrible idea, it's unsafe already. an ex. would be. . 

5B > 5C > GH, they Up-back/IB Barrier you are at a huge disadvantage because it hits earlier. There are a million ways to move around GH like shifting your hurtbox/AA/fucking mashing. I'm not saying don't use GH at all (because it has uses obv) but just keep in mind it can be countered lol.

TK GH is sometimes safe. both grounded and TK at max range is safe. 

I could make a long winded post about conditioning affecting the use of GH but long story short. Just don't use it so crazy ( i used to do it a lot haha). be mindful!

[D.R.F.]

Since ragna has very few jump cancelable moves (3 & 6C) its hard to catch people jumping. What you can try (and yes this is silly at many times) and end blockstrings where you are at advantage and try to j.A then if they did jump. That is a hard callout among callouts though, so I just 5D :p

[Cheefoo]

I know it's definitely not designed, or very well suited for catching jump outs, but I notice a lot when GH is blocked by an airborne opponent they will hesitate to punish. I probably should have started by introducing the situation in question. I'd like to better understand why people hesitate in that scenario, and how, as a Ragna player, one might take advantage of it.

 

I was thinking people would sit tight and block after GH AA blocked, because:

A. They know something I don't (that GH might leave Ragna at an effective advantage considering the time it takes for the opponent to drop back down or something - keeping in mind that GH is likely to hit at later active frames if they jump backwards)

B. They don't know that it's still -8 or whatever and they're free to at least try to punish (unless Ragna wants to DP)

C. They are afraid of keri age followup (probably not likely, because they should know that if they just land and crouch they're safe)

D. They are afraid of RC into mixup

 

I think in most scenarios it would be D, seeing as I've even seen this happen during pro-japanese-high-level matches where B and C should be non-factors. However I'm still wondering if A has any validity in cases of certain matchups.

 

I'm definitely not suggesting to use GH as an anti jump out tool, but rather to consider taking advantage of the strange habit people seem to take of staying defensive after blocking GH in the air. Also figuring out why in the hell they do that so much.

[mAc Chaos]

What frame do Gauntlet Hades and 6D go airborne? I've been grabbed out of GH while throw baiting even after the GH animation started.

[D.R.F.]

Idk about GH, but 6D is low invul at frame 10

[bakahyl]

Wasn't GH airborn after like 12f in extend? Unless it was changed in cp

 

Also in cse 6d was airborn after 20f

[mAc Chaos]

sheesh no wonder i always get 720d trying to GH

 

so much for throw baits

[WolfCrimson]

What frame do Gauntlet Hades and 6D go airborne? I've been grabbed out of GH while throw baiting even after the GH animation started.

 

If you wanna throwbait with GH, just do the TK version. As of CP1.1 you won't go over them if you TK it properly.

[D.R.F.]

^ such a fast overhead too

[floatwater]

Wasn't GH airborn after like 12f in extend? Unless it was changed in cp

 

Also in cse 6d was airborn after 20f

What? 6D is airborne on frame 7 or 10 in EX and CP.

GH is airborne roughly 12 frames or so.

[bakahyl]

then i probably misread the framedata in cse on his 6d

 

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ragna_Frame_Data_%28BBCSE%29

 

 

20F~ in the air

 

 

edit: Ragna is probably not airborn on frame 7-10, because i can easily tager buster Ragna out of his 6d if he tries a move with low blockstun into 6d

 

I think that you are mistaken his early foot invulnerability frames for being airborn

[Final Ultima]

In regards to 6D....

BBCT: Foot invulnerable from frame 1 to frame 24 (1-21 during Blood Kain), airborne on frame 16.
BBCS: Foot invulnerable from frame 1 to frame 28 (1-21 during Blood Kain), airborne on frame 20 (16 during Blood Kain).
BBCSII: Same as BBCS.
BBEX: Foot invulnerable from frame 10 to frame 25 (8-21 during Blood Kain), airborne on frame 20 (16 during Blood Kain).
BBCP: Foot invulnerable from frame 10 to frame 25 (8-21 during Blood Kain).

The frame data for BBCP doesn't specify when Ragna is considered airborne, but I think the history of the move paints the picture well enough. 6D's start-up time and foot invulnerability time were unchanged, so I imagine his airborne time is the same too. Gauntlet Hades similarly doesn't specify, but has historically been airborne from frame 12 in every version of the game.

[Beautiful Death]

oh wtf 6D used to be foot invinc from frame 1 huh. that's pretty sick they should bring that back