[UNIEL] Gordeau

[Grim-reaper]

B is definitly an option-select against teleporters. Either you get grim reaper or anti-air assimilation.

[Reioumu]

A friend has access to the frame data feature hidden in training mode so I asked him about a couple of stuff:

 

- 5A st: 6 adv: -1

- 5B st: 8 adv: 0

- 2B st: 7 adv: -4

- 22A st: 20 adv: +7

- 236C adv: +5

I have different data from in-game testing at 60fps. This is the frame data I gathered.

move | 1st active frame | advantage on block

5A | 6f | -1f

5B | 9f | 0f

5C | 16f | -26f

5[C] | 35f | -25f

2A | 7f | -3f

2B | 8f | -4f

2C | 8f+8f  | -10f

3C | 11f-20f(9f active) | -5f at worst +4f at best.

6B | 27f | -3f

66B | 10f | -2f

66C | 11f-21f (10f active) | -7f at worst +3f at best

236A | 17f+18f | -3f

236B | 23f+18f | -5f

->236A followup | (didn't test) | -6f

623A | 14f+15f | -6f

623B | 9f+15f | -16f

623C | 20fsuperflash+5f | (didn't test)

22A | 21f | +7f

214A | 13f | (didn't test recovery)

I've done some testing with punishes and the such, and it's been pretty accurate.

Testing method:

Record at 60fps

do move on opponent blocking

pause

set dummy to jump

unpause while holding up.

repeat for all the moves.

After recording I go through it all frame by frame and count. Also using the training mode numbers as a guide.

EDIT: I'm convinced this game registers hits 1 frame before any hitsparks, so my frame data was off by 1 frame. I corrected it with -1 frame startup on everything. Though the super being that fast, I need to do more testing.

[_Sey]

I swear I could punish a point blank 66C with 2B (and not 5B) although it was pretty strict.

Hmm, I don't really want to bug him about re-checking data and stuff so I guess I'll go test stuff a bit more myself, thank you.

The in-game debug feature is pretty accurate so far though... it lists stuff that japan has been saying for a while too like 4fr throws and -8fr adv after a teched throw, no disrespect but your data could be wrong, or, well, it's very slightly off while some stuff is the same... dunno.

 

Some data I forgot to post about 5A (startup/active/recovery)

Whiff: 5 2 12 (19)
On hit\block: 5 1 21 (27)

 

+4 3C seems pretty nuts though, is there more than max distance to get that kind of frame advantage? like some character with a huge horizontal hurtbox?

 

How's everyone been using meter?

I have no idea what's the most efficient way to end combos.

[Reioumu]

so it looks like there's 8 frames of hitstop from the 5A? And no offense taken. I've seen everyone with different numbers on everything. Don't know what to expect. Just gotta keep testing.

Also SKD and I both got that Merkava's 236C is -2, but then 6f normals can punish it on shield... Sometimes I don't know what to believe in the frames lol.

[Reioumu]

I just realized that if the game registers a hit 1f before the hitspark then I think everyone would make more sense with a 6f 5A.

I do need to do more testing, but on some punishes there seems to an extra frame that is punishing something that isn't punishable normally. All of the moves might come out a frame faster than you see on the hitspark. Just a theory, but I'm not sure.

edit: I'm pretty sure that's the case. Edited my previous numbers by subtracting 1 off all the startup.

[Lucalibur]

I wish I had known you can link stuff from 6B rather than being forced to cancel into 22A to combo after it earlier lol

 

I tested stuff, and if the startup listed on Reio's post is correct then you're IN THE LEAST, at +11 on hit from 6B. I could link 66C from it, albeit a bit tightly. 5B link into it is super easy.

 

For extra points, you can do 2C>6B after it for extreme swag. Trying to find optimal routes out of that because I wanna look cool while being top tier.

[Fatalis]

After 6B, if you want a really easy confirm, you can do 236A x2 > 2C > etc for an easy combo.

[Lucalibur]

After 6B, if you want a really easy confirm, you can do 236A x2 > 2C > etc for an easy combo.

I tested this route, but I don't really like the damage you get from it(a bit smaller than what I get out of 5B linking). That being said, you wanna do 236B instead of 236A here since it ups the damage for whatever reason(either proration or repeat proration, but no real idea)

[Fatalis]

Yeah, the 5B route is the best for damage, the rekka route is just for easier execution.

 

The reason though they do the 22A after 6B I think is because you don't have to worry about hitconfirming the combo afterwards.

 

If they block 6B, and you did 22A, you're fine because 22A is plus on block, and you can cancel into it on block.

 

If you're doing the 5B link, and you try to time your 5B, but they actually blocked 6B, you haven't canceled into anything and are likely to be punished, so you would have to practice doing 22A on block and linking 5B on hit.

[susano]

I have trouble with the Carmine matchup too...or rather the basic cookie cutter ones. It's like block forever until he screws up something, lol.

[Rhiya]

If you want Carmine exp, try to get to play Tonberry imo

[susano]

If you want Carmine exp, try to get to play Tonberry imo

Okay.

[fogelstrom]

How's everyone been using meter?

I have no idea what's the most efficient way to end combos.

For meter I abuse 214C against people who don't know you can jump it after flash.

623C after CS to confirm people are in the air.

Other than that after 236x3, CS, IW or 236Ax2, IW

Also I try to utilize Veil Off as much as possible because the dmg you get is spectacular just make sure to use IW before the meter runs out!

 

-

 

For 6B I always go to 22A because of what has already been said above. If you do not cancel it you will be -8 on block and if people catch up on that it's not worth getting some added dmg just because you can confirm 6B to normals. I used to go to 2B after hit but after I began using 22A... it's just that much better in every aspect.

6B, 22A, 2B, 3C, 2C, j.[C], j.A, j.B, 3C, 236Ax3

 

-

 

Carmine is that kind of character. Once he sets his stuff up you won't be doing much besides blocking.

My recommendation is either to look at frame data available to look for gaps, use shield so you get Vorpal for free Alpha Counter. Use Veil Off as reversal to get him off of you.

 

But the matchup heavily revolves around who has the offense, meter and Vorpal.

 

I have not played the matchup to a greater extent but the above generally applies for alot of matchups imo. The better you get at chilling and outplaying people in neutral the better you are going to do in all matchups. Carmine has alot of tools for far/mid neutral game with his projectile and blood puddles to keep you on your toes. You have to respect alot of stuff from him.

[LionHeartx]

I generally use meter in one of these ways

 

- CS into EX Grim Reaper for AA

 

-mashing reversal EX Assumilation during blockstrings when I have CS (lolol)

 

-blockstring, delay, grim reaper xx EX mortal slide

 

-blockstring, delay, microdash EX Assumilation when I have CS and know they like to mash

 

in my experiences ending combos with meter doesnt really add significant damage unless you combo into IW, I would rather keep that meter for neutral.

[Rhiya]

The damage difference between dead and not dead is always pretty significant.

 

EDIT: Most of the time, you'll also want to just blow some meter if you're sitting at 200%, since any meter gain you would get is totally wasted (most notably, using chain shift isn't half as good when you're sitting at 200%). EX combo enders/EX midcombo is one of the safest ways to blow your meter, and the return on your meter is guaranteed.

[LionHeartx]

Obviously but generally getting 60 more damage from a combo by ending it with 22c is not gonna be the difference between killing a character and not killing them.

[Rhiya]

it's more like 200 if you don't finish with grab and instead try to go for the kill with ex grim, at least off the lazy bnb

 

you'll get a lot more mileage if you can cs the grab because you're in vorpal, though -- a lot more. it's like a 600 dmg difference

[Yuhoke]

- CS into EX Grim Reaper for AA

I was thinking about this. If you CS and check if they're in the air and Grim Reaper them, wouldn't want to use that meter like this: CS>623A>22C>combo? IIRC if you them with 623A/B while they're in the air and cancel to 22C, the last hit whiffs and you get a combo.

[Rhiya]

you should just grim reaper first and then cs regardless of outcome

 

if you think you should grim reaper and have cs, hold the cs to convert grim reaper

[Yuhoke]

But can you get a combo from AA grim reaper CS? It launches them so high and they tech before you can reach them. Seems better to save the vorpal.

[LionHeartx]

usually you cant (unless you 22c like you said) depending on how high they are I've had decent success with j.[C] into 3c xx 236a 236a 236a but thats only if they are pretty deep into their jump arc.

[GreekAngel]

*Throws Gordeau CMV at forums*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXy89EvZeEs&feature=youtu.be

[susano]

*Throws Gordeau CMV at forums*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXy89EvZeEs&feature=youtu.be

I luff joo. o 3o

[Reioumu]

These are your options for meter that don't involve your opponents being shit and not knowing they can jump after 214C...

Honestly, save your bar after a combo unless it will kill. I can't stress this enough. Having the meter in certain situations will make life easier. See someone doing a slow overhead? 623C is your 7 frame option. You think someone is trying to command throw you or doing braindead stagger strings? 214C works on that. Doing 22A meaty on oki with an opponent that has EX reversals? You can do 214C in reaction to the superflash to beat them.

 

Or even in neutral. Want to get in? 623B 236C. Shit is +5 on block, +2 if they shield. You're in there.

 

Don't waste meter in a combo unless you're doing a turbulence combo or a 623B 22C combo. I even have a bad habit of doing 623B 236C without confirming the hit/block which I need to get rid of myself. (though netplay :V)

 

Also fixed my frame data on 2C, it's not 8+18, it's 8+8, so 16 frames for the 2nd hit to come out (the anti-air)

[Lucalibur]

5C>236AX2>2B>5B>J.B2>J.C>3C>2C(1)>236BX3 for 3225

 

Highest damage I got out of mid-screen 5C so far. Was surprised to see 2C(1) comboing into 236B so perfectly. Also required in chars like Eltnum since 2C(1)>236A doesn't combo into her for some reason. Nanase also requires a dash before 2B, otherwise 5B doesn't connect. Buff 5B's range pls.