[UNIEL] Byakuya

[Zephyrion22]

Also here is another possible corner gimmick involving 623C

 

623C>2B>2C>TKj214B>214A~A~D>CS> jB

 

This can work once since the CS forces the opponent to reverse his guard so this is a true cross-up. Even when guarded, the ground web gives you good chip damage while the air web will extend the blockstun. the last web is used for  tick throw setups  or simply to create advantage after normally unsafe normals during pressure. you can also create a reversal trap just by inputting the 214A dash  follow-up as early as possible and the D web as late as possible. The opponent can avoid the mixup by delay teching but you still end up being safe. he can also back tech, but he should end up too far to DP or anything, and right into the TK214B web, so you can still pressure, and get to the other corner with the right combo routes.  You can of course use throw + 4 follow-up to send the opponent in the A web before it connects.

 

From this you also get a last resort gimmick : since the traps were set in reverse, the opponent is actually pulled back towards you in the corner so if you assault jC, it will whiff, but the following 2B will actually hit cross-up (careful though, cross-up protection is disabled because there is a hole between webs hitting and 2B, meaning this can be DPed out both before the assault and after landing from it). you can also assault jB : this will trigger the cross-up protection but you succesfully put back the opponent in the corner if he didn't expect it (no hole after the assault means extra layer of safety)

 

All in all this setup his kinda risky and expensive , but it's a good one for when the opponent starts respecting the usual setups too much, since it has the advantage of really messing guards up

[Justice7541]

The damage difference is negligible enough for it to be a non-issue. I have my basic BnB from a jump in doing 3140 meterless. It uses 2C - 5C - 214B. The exact same combo replacing 2C - 5C - 214B with 5C - 236B - 4A does 3096 meterless. My corner BnB that leaves oki (j.C - 2B - 2C - 5C - 214B-B-D - land - 2C - finish combo) does 3001 meterless with 2C - 5C. With 5C 236B starter it does 3037 but is much tighter to perform execution-wise because they tech before they hit the ground due to starting with rekka. If i mess up they could potentially forward airtech out of the corner. I don't know if you realize, but using rekka and 214A (instead of 214B) near the start of combos causes more hitstun deterioration, and this will make some combos impossible. For example, midscreen I can do the same BnB using the D web to leave a thing on the ground, but because rekka moves me forward, my land - 2C wont work because rekka moved me too far forward. Positioning is very, very important with this character, and there's a real difference between the two confirms positioning-wise and scaling-wise.

Also, how do you lose the 3C/3[C] high-low just because you're using 2C - 5C confirm? How does that option suddenly disappear? You still got 3C - 2B - 2C and 2B - 3C - 2C. If you already used your 2C before the 3C then you can instead confirm 3C - 2B - 236B.

tl;dr: 2C - 5C is a fine starter, both routes have their pros and cons. Don't remove valid combo routes from the wiki due to personal preference. You should be absolutely sure that something is worthless before doing that.

I did leave it in there as an alternative route but with a note about why I think it's a bad route. You are correct in noting that the damage difference is negligible which is all the more reason to use the more stable route. It may make combos slightly tighter but short of having an extremely short starter like 2Ax2 everything should still work well within the boundaries of reason, even on netplay. Offhand other than 2Ax2 starter which will force you to drop the double web at the start I don't think any of the routes I use drop. If you know of any good routes that don't work with 236B initial launcher then let me know and I'll add them, or you can add them yourself.

As 2C 5C in pressure, I can tell you from personal experience that leading with 2B 2C cuts off so many pressure options and that my pressure game expanded massively after I stopped doing that. 5C is a really, really good pressure tool because it's relatively not-unsafe on block for a C poke (-8) and you can cancel it into other moves super late. 2C is similar but it's more disadvantageous (-12) and you usually don't have a good low option off it since you've probably already used 2B as your starter poke. 3C/3[C] mixup isn't a very good mixup at all (I know some people thought it was amazing at first then they realized you couldn't half charge it like in Melty) both because 3C has really short range and also because the difference in startup and animation is so distinct (it's like a 15f low with no flash vs. a 30f overhead with a flash). Delay 2C vs. 3[C] I've found to be a much more effective mixup since it'll at least force them to stay awake and watch your animations and most likely be twitchier and easier to frametrap.

At any rate in terms of "this is the basics, learn this one first" combos, I think 236B~4A is a much more consistent and easier confirm to learn than 2C 5C.

[Nerk]

Who says you're going 2B 2C? There's more than one situation where the opponent will block your attack; max range 2B starter isn't the only thing that starts blockstrings. I already told you some stuff that doesn't work due to added hitstun deterioration and extra forward movement where you might not want it. This stuff matters. Another example: defaulting to 236B - 4A without thinking can lead to being forced to use B web swing followup and be side-switched when you don't want it, due to being too close to them for an A followup. It isn't necessarily a more stable route. I use both routes depending on what I hit them with and where I am on the screen and where my opponent is (I much prefer 2C - 5C for aerial pickup after j.2[C] for instance). If my 2C is unavailable I'd obviously go for 236B confirm.

We ALL have personal experience dude. We all play this character. But a wiki is a database of info for the people, and there are times people will want to use 2C - 5C. Don't add personal opinions to the wiki, especially not when we have yet to see any top level tournament Byakuya play.

[Justice7541]

Everything on the wiki is opiniont o some extent. I can certainly put in a note that 236B~4A may have harsher proration in some instances and that 2C 5C may be better situationally. I still maintain that 236B~4A is a better general purpose launcher to learn though if you only had time to learn one.

Beyond that it's still productive to clean up the wiki though because it was basically like:

- 5A combos: Four arbitrary combinations of starters and enders

- 5B combo: Same shit as above but with the 5A omitted

- 3C combo: Rejump combo into one arbitrary version of above.

- 3[C} combo: Web combo into a different arbitrary ender.

It was basically a mess, is what I'm getting at. Ideally we'd be able to break Byakuya combos down into starter (236B~4A, 2C 5C, etc.), filler (A followup loop, B sideswap, etc.) and ender (A followup, rekkas > super, 623C, etc.) but that was getting too complicated when I tried to do it that way. Combo theory is nice but I think most people experimenting with Byakuya just want to see the one starter combo to learn to see how he feels.

[Nerk]

Oh yeah it was a mess alright, thanks for clearing that up, but at first you were talking about wanting to wipe the 2C 5C route from existence for reasons that are kinda well... questionable. Then leaving notes based on supposed blockstring limitations, like having 2C 5C in your arsenal as an option somehow forces you to give up 5C for blockstrings... I just don't think it's a good idea to get into that territory. The two are basically interchangeable for most combos anyway so it might be a better idea to just say that, like the Linne wiki does with
 

BnBs can be ended the following ways. 6CCC - hard knockdown ender 6CC>214B~A/B - More damaging, allows for opponent to air tech. 6CC>63214A - adds some damage, can add a EXS/IW after.

j.B>j.6B are interchangeable unless stated otherwise.

Or like the Chaos wiki which does a really great write up.
 

Part 1: The Confirm

The main goal here is to launch them into the air with either 5BB/5CC. j.A/j.B/j.C/j.2C/5A/2A/5B/2B/5C/22x

• > (2C) > 5BB/5CC

6C

• > Chain Shift/Force Function > 5CC

[Justice7541]

I never said I wanted to wipe it, I just don't think it should be the first thing on the wiki for combos because honestly people are going to start from the top down. I started with 2C 5C combos because of that wiki and it took me like three days to break the muscle memory so I could finally start stepping up my pressure game.

[Nerk]

I never said I wanted to wipe it, I just don't think it should be the first thing on the wiki for combos because honestly people are going to start from the top down.

 

In particular I want to get rid of the 2C 5C route since that's a terrible starter for a variety of reasons.

 

Cmon... well anyway, your inability to deviate from muscle memorized strings doesn't make a route bad. Blockstrings/pressure and combos are not the same thing. You can string into anything in this game, if you felt limited because you felt you could only ever use one type of confirm then that's another issue. Having the presence of mind to choose one or the other based on the situation is a good skill to have.

[Justice7541]

I'm still not 100% sure what these routes you refer to that only work off of 2C 5C are. Maybe you could type them out for me.

[GcYoshi13]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24289555

 

japanese Byakuya combo video. There's some weird tech going on here where the Byakuya player is doing a charged move (it looks like charged Force Function) and somehow doing a jump follow up from 214A/B/C+A/B/C without doing the web or jump.

 

Can anyone explain this? This could be very strong for Byakuya neutral as it allows him to set up ground web quickly or go for quick overheads.

[LitchiFayeBling]

what in the world

 

theres subtitles that are in jpn. dunno what they are saying, but it does say FFC which could be force function cancel??? maybe some sort of kara FF into trap lay?

[GcYoshi13]

I figured out it works and how to replicate it for the most part thanks to a friend translating Japanese and the Japanese UNIEL boards discussing this.

 

I'll make a video later tonight.

[-Kef-]

I figured out it works and how to replicate it for the most part thanks to a friend translating Japanese and the Japanese UNIEL boards discussing this.

 

I'll make a video later tonight.

 

Good stuff Yoshi. Appreciate the work of going and finding the forums, finding someone to translate, and recording the vid with the tech. Honestly appreciated.

[y0shi]

I was able to do A and D followups by mashing only, timing seems kinda strict. Not sure why and how this tech works, maybe it can be called a bug? Anyway I'm eager to see GC Yoshi's vid!

[GcYoshi13]

I was able to do A and D followups by mashing only, timing seems kinda strict. Not sure why and how this tech works, maybe it can be called a bug? Anyway I'm eager to see GC Yoshi's vid!

Yeah the timing is strict.

 

I don't entirely know the exact requirements to begin being able to do this.

 

The conditions that worked for me were:

 

- Having at least one bar of GRD.

- In Vorpal State.

 

I also heard it can be done if you're in Veil Out.

[y0shi]

You don't have to be on Vorpal, you only need the GRD actually :3

[TD]

what exactly is happening here

[Sashi]

Can you do a jumping normal before you land from web B with this FFC tech?

[GcYoshi13]

Can you do a jumping normal before you land from web B with this FFC tech?

Yes. Literally a double overhead. You can air web too.

[y0shi]

It's a pretty scary mixup, especially if you have CS available.

[GcYoshi13]

what exactly is happening here

Byakuyas fully charged force function is cancel-able before the active frames come out.

He somehow can cancel into any of his web follow ups(his options after he jumps after he sets the web)

Not only is he somehow canceling his FF, but he's bypassing his rekkas an is just doing the last version which is mad weird.

Right now, the requirements and timing to do this is very strict.

[y0shi]

Have any of you guys been able to do this repeatedly in a short amount of time? I mean, I usually charge my GRD with D and do [b+C]~mash A/B/C for the "bug" to occur. The first one always go smoothly, while the second and third never goes alright. However, if I D charge>setup>D charge>setup, it goes smoothly. Am I mistiming it or what?

[Rhiya]

it has a minimum grd requirement

 

to be honest, it seems intentional, if weird

 

the behavior is too bizarre to be a glitch

[y0shi]

I mean, hold D until you fill all the GRD blocks and then try doing various reps of this setup, it's not working for me at least. If I just tap D for the second rep it will almost 100% sure work.

[Justice7541]

Have any of you guys been able to do this repeatedly in a short amount of time? I mean, I usually charge my GRD with D and do [b+C]~mash A/B/C for the "bug" to occur. The first one always go smoothly, while the second and third never goes alright. However, if I D charge>setup>D charge>setup, it goes smoothly. Am I mistiming it or what?

Looks like the exact input is D~[b+C]~X.  Works every time provided you time the presses right.  The D doesn't have to be a charge, you can do like 5C~D or something to get an empty D press and it'll still work.

[LitchiFayeBling]

this is too weird

 

 

what does it mean when the game (byakuya?) says "chance!"