[UNIEL] Byakuya

[-Kef-]

Messed around with a bit of his corner okizeme today, found some interesting stuff.

 

First, the oki setup that has been mentioned before, 3C>214A/B/C, I think it's very weak. I think I've seen discussions were Byakuya players think they can land and mix the opponent up with throw, 2B, 3C, etc. This is not the case, in the slightest. If after a typical combo ender (236A~4A~A~A) or the already mentioned setup (3C>214A/B/C) you attempt any web, you are not safe before landing. Character like Gordeau can just mash a normal on wakeup like 2C and destroy every single trap you placed + punishing you before falling. If you want to set a trap in this types of situation, try going for a dash followup mixup, cause this setup gets lit up.

 

This brings me to my second point, 214A~D web (ground web) does not hit the opponent as soon as they recover from a tech. Is it something regarding how the web works, or is it something about how techs work in this game? For this post, that doesn't really matter. This means you cannot play it safe while trying to hide behind the ground web. I thought you would be able to just block on their wakeup to bait a DP or to wait for the opponent to get blockstun from the web, but mashing normals on wakeup beats both options.

 

Leaving the negative aside, a found some potentially great stuff for his corner oki:

 

[236C>DD]

- This is the only move to my knowledge that can be canceled with Chain Shift on whiff (or at any point in the move). Which means, if you have vorpal, you can do a spaced/meaty 236A/B on their wakeup and cancel it into Chain Shift if you see them waking up with an invincible move, which will allow you to block and punish them. The blockstun from the 236C>DD is also pretty large, but haven't really tested exactly how good it is (does it allow for a true blocsktring into 3[C]/BC mixups?).

 

[3C>delayed 9j.2[C]]

- Safe-jump that I tested with Gordeau's 623. Somewhat difficult to setup, but of course easier against slower reversals (Merkava's 236C for example). Need to test this a bit more. Timing may vary depending of combo used.

 

[3C>7j.214A~A~B = The Merkava Slayer?]

- Dash followups from the bad 3C>214X setup are the best thing you can go for. You are already going to get punished, so why not go all in? This type of setup has potential, especially this one from 3C. After 3C, you jump cancel the move into a web and do the dash followup (preferably, followed up by the B overhead followup). This is allows Byakuya to go really high up, going over some common reversals. It still needs more testing of course, but this one seems to be my favorite meterless setup of the bunch as of right now. The mixup after the B Overhead followup has already been discussed by other members here, so no need to describe how good it is. 

 

So what's this Merkava thing. Well, if you setup a j.214A version of the web after this setup, and you follow up with the dash followup of the web, Merkava has no true reversal option from what I've tested (except 200 meter super). If the web is done low enough, Byakuya hovers over Merkava's 236C while a web punishes him right after startup, landing you a full combo back into the corner. If Merkava tries to Veil Off on wakeup, you hover so high up in the air that is does not hit you and you can land and punish. 

 

Like everything we've found, it still need more testing, but it has potential.

[Nerk]

What exactly is this bad 3C > 214A/B/C oki setup you're talking about? Do you mean OTG 3C into web? Or meaty 3C into web? Or ending a combo with 3C then placing a web for oki? Never heard of it, can you explain?

Also, Byakuya can chain shift all his rekkas, web placements and web swing follow up attacks on whiff. Only his command grab series can't be chain shifted on whiff. Also, are you sure it's entirely feasible to expect people to be able to meaty with 236X and chain shift on reaction to seeing a reversal? I'm not seeing it, unless it's a super...

Thanks for sharing this stuff Kef, I'll upload a few videos of the oki setups I've been using later on.

[-Kef-]

What exactly is this bad 3C > 214A/B/C oki setup you're talking about? Do you mean OTG 3C into web? Or meaty 3C into web? Or ending a combo with 3C then placing a web for oki? Never heard of it, can you explain?

Also, Byakuya can chain shift all his rekkas, web placements and web swing follow up attacks on whiff. Only his command grab series can't be chain shifted on whiff. Also, are you sure it's entirely feasible to expect people to be able to meaty with 236X and chain shift on reaction to seeing a reversal? I'm not seeing it, unless it's a super...

Thanks for sharing this stuff Kef, I'll upload a few videos of the oki setups I've been using later on.

 

The 3C>214A/B/C oki is just, like you said, OTG'ing with 3C and cancelling into web, letting Byakuya land by himself and go for a mixup involving throw/2B(low)/3[C] mixup. It is extremely punishable not only by reversals, but by many normals on wakeup because of the lack of meaty protection from any type of web.

 

And yeah, the Rekka>Chain Shift is aimed more at reversal supers. This is one of the most potent options against a character like Gordeau, who relies on supers for reversals.

 

I might try to record the Merkava setup or something later on, but it will probably be poverty type recording.

[Loryuo]

rekka chainshift seems to be quite clever in baiting supers. I've been using it against characters with good reversals and it seems to work most of the time.

 

Still trying to exactly understand what you mean when you mention 3C though. haha

[Nerk]

He means when you do 236A-4A-A, when you land you normally 2C or 2B into 236A for the OTG pickup. Instead some people are claiming OTG 3C into web placement for meterless oki works. It doesn't.

[Loryuo]

Ahh i see. thanks for the explanation.

[Zephyrion22]

Messed around with a bit of his corner okizeme today, found some interesting stuff.

 

First, the oki setup that has been mentioned before, 3C>214A/B/C, I think it's very weak. I think I've seen discussions were Byakuya players think they can land and mix the opponent up with throw, 2B, 3C, etc. This is not the case, in the slightest. If after a typical combo ender (236A~4A~A~A) or the already mentioned setup (3C>214A/B/C) you attempt any web, you are not safe before landing. Character like Gordeau can just mash a normal on wakeup like 2C and destroy every single trap you placed + punishing you before falling. If you want to set a trap in this types of situation, try going for a dash followup mixup, cause this setup gets lit up.

 

This brings me to my second point, 214A~D web (ground web) does not hit the opponent as soon as they recover from a tech. Is it something regarding how the web works, or is it something about how techs work in this game? For this post, that doesn't really matter. This means you cannot play it safe while trying to hide behind the ground web. I thought you would be able to just block on their wakeup to bait a DP or to wait for the opponent to get blockstun from the web, but mashing normals on wakeup beats both options.

 

After checking, yup this is completely true, just forget most of what I've said about my other post about okizeme xD

A few things to note though :

-Those setups works from a corner throw (without the follow-up) but don't work from a 2C as it was said

 

-People who know how to punish web placement, and do so after 2C oki, can get tricked by late chain shifting the web placement. this is relatively expensive for what you get from it,  and should be kept for specific occasions. If you somewhat manage to get some respect, you can also early chain shift and try various gimmicks. It can work if you use those sparingly.

 

-The webs don't hit on the first frames during which the opponent comes into contact with it. This why you can just hold [8] for all eternity against ground webs : the catch part will only happen if they stay on the ground during a certain amount of frames. That is also why 214A>623C UB gimmick is possible : if you set a web on the opponent's recovery and perform 623C as soon as their feet touch the ground, the 623C will hit BEFORE the 214A web, resulting in an unblockable hit

 

-The best okizeme options Byakuya have are obviously the 623C ender  ones in any BnB combos, as they allow you to place webs that successfully punish anything the opponent can do, while remaining relatively safe. You can also use them to set effective throw setups, or space while the opponent is trapped between webs (this is the best option against mashers, as Byakuya's far reaching pokes can beat anything on reaction, except a few moves, such as Merkava's 236C). Do note that due to how the webs works, you can be thrown before the webs becomes active : even if you tech and regain frame advantage, all the webs will automatically be cleared of the screen, so you should be careful and use different setups to keep them guessing

[-Kef-]

Okay, so 236C>Chain Shift does not have enough blockstun to guarantee a 3[C] or BC mixup. The only way you get a guaranteed mixup is if you Chain Shift while on the 3rd loop of the rekkas (so 236A/B~A/B~A/B>Chain Shift) because this is a true blockstring. The bad thing about this last note is that rekkas can be interrupted between the first and second loop with an invincible super. If the opponent does not have a reversal that gets them out of this gap in the rekkas, you can even hit-confirm a hit of rekkas with Chain Shift if they were mashing buttons seeing how it is a natural frame trap.

 

Also, Gordeau can't do anything about Rekka>Chain Shift. You can jump out of his command grab super on reaction or block his EX Grim Reaper. Sadly, he's one of the characters that blow up the gap between rekkas with EX Grim Reaper.

 

Also, with more testing of the Merkava setup, it seems he can get away with 623C . You MIGHT be able to land quickly with some kind of timing of the setup and punish him with either 66B or 66C before he lands, but it seems somewhat unlikely.

 

 

After checking, yup this is completely true, just forget most of what I've said about my other post about okizeme xD

A few things to note though :

-Those setups works from a corner throw (without the follow-up) but don't work from a 2C as it was said

 

Oh, but it does work from throw eh? That's a good option to have for sure. And yeah I agree, 623 Oki is his best type of oki by far.

[Loryuo]

You can actually grab Byakuya out of his 2nd part of his rekkas, so be careful.

[TD]

so far from 623c I have seen, and this is keeping in mind there are only 3 possible web placements that can be on the field at any given time;

 

midscreen

tk 214bbc 214a. some reason the 214a does not go away on tech

623 a or b 214a

66c 214b or c tk 214c

 

corner

after move you are in corner cross through 214c tk 214c

in corner, 214a cross through. dash into foe slightly (they are completely in corner. tech wont destroy web if used.

 

 

I had one that put a web on either side of the foe as they awoke. i'll try to find it. no sure which are most optional for the various options in this game, especially midscreen, but webs already there on wakeup feel good. would really love if there was a setup that gave you a chance at two blockstrings or mixups, like a meaty web and one behind them so that a blockstring ender pushes them back into the web, you can dash in and continue pressure. working on some stuff of my own if I continue to play this char that is.

 

also for ground web on wakeup, is there jump startup in this game? thinking 2c/overhead/block to punish jump/respect/dp respectively.

 

pardon my rambling. question, how much blockstun do these webs even generate? like sometimes i'll do rekka into web for pressure reset and it doesnt get punished as I dash in. better yet, is there a way to record the dummy in training mode?

[Justice7541]

Blocked web set is extremely + on block, somewhere in the order of double digits.  I can check later but not right this instant.

 

And yes, you can record the dummy.  It's a bit difficult to describe so just google a menu translation or something.

[gpmoney]

any good block strings I should know about? I'm having trouble playing neutral cause I get swatted every time I place a trap lol 

[Nerk]

This is the setup I use off of corner 623C: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8NTWDYSBOo

I try to explain a bunch of the setups and just how webs work in general. Hope this proves useful to someone.

[Rhiya]

623C> walk through> 214aad

 

or even one web, if you want

 

abuse the long knockdown time to safely run involved and ambiguous mixups or do safejumps or something

 

the big benefit is the length of the kd, moreso than the setup time (though that matters)

[HPHatecraft]

Can we get a nice little list in the OP of optimized BnBs for all the starters? Midscreen corner, corner carry, all that good stuff? Skimming through the thread, I can't tell what all is optimized or not. I'd like to make a list for reference in my notes on my phone, but I'm not even sure where to start.

[Justice7541]

623C> walk through> 214aad

or even one web, if you want

abuse the long knockdown time to safely run involved and ambiguous mixups or do safejumps or something

the big benefit is the length of the kd, moreso than the setup time (though that matters)

Safejump is really hard to time in this game thanks to long landing recoveries. A j.B safejump vs. Gordeau EX Grim Reaper would be a 4f window out of like three seconds or whatever the 623C window is. That said I can confirm that doing 623C > 214A > j.214A > neutral jump j.B will safejump Grim Reaper if you do it fast enough. Still tight though.

Also thanks to web taking forever to trigger (Byakuya can get a 3C off on wakeup before web triggers) you can't really do a meaty web, the opponent can actually mash out of web oki setups really easily. I've said this before but putting web in front of/on top of someone tends not to be super helpful if they happen to know they can mash through it and kill the web; then you're back to square one just like if you didn't have the web at all.

Much more useful IMO to make sure you either 1) get the web set up behind them so if they do mash you, you can green shield them back into the web behind them, or 2) space multiple webs so that the pushback on block from the first web pushes them back into the second so you have more blockstun to work with for mixups. It also helps to have a web above them as those are harder to kill by just mashing and it'll prevent them from jumping out for free.

[Zephyrion22]

Too early to tell if all that stuff is optimized or not, here is a good basis for meterless optimized routes on classic starters. Do note that assault jumping attacks prorate heavily, so A starters route should be the prefered route in most cases

 

Midscreen

 

 

-5A/2A>2C>5C>214A/B>214C~A~A>2C>(236A>4A~A~A)*2 you can add a dash C after the first 214A/B but it makes the combo incredibly tight for a small damage/meter bonus

 

-2B>2C>5C>214A/B>dash C>214C~A~A>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

-3[C]>214C>dash C>214C~A~A>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

-B+C> Chain Shift>dash B>236A>4B(>dash C)>214C~A~A>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

-j2[C]>5C>214A/B>dash C>214C~A~A>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

-5B anti-air>jB>jC>214A>(dash B>236A>4A~A~A)*3

 

-623A/B>2C>236A>4A~A~A>2C>236B>6B>6B

 

Side swap

 

-2A/5A>2C>5C>214B~B~B>jA whiff>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

*The route is the same for the other starters, too lazy to copy paste xD

 

Corner

 

-2A/5A>214A>214B~A~A>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2 Also works with any other normal starter

 

-3[C] 214C>214C~C~A>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

D oki web routes

 

-2A>5A>2C>TK j.214C~C~D>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

-2B>2C>5C>214A~A~D>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

-3[C]> Chain Shift> j2[C]>5C>214A~A~D>(2C>236A>4A~A~A)*2

 

 

Some more specific stuff exists, but it's mostly changing the ender (using supers for damage or Oki) or very situational things (throw into web). Most of Byakuya's combo use the same base as you can probably already tell, so you can work from there !

[Justice7541]

Ending in 214AAA seems like a pretty bad default route to use since it doesn't allow you to end in super (and Byakuya builds meter like crazy) or even really do anything significant on oki. IMO it is better to end in 2B 236AAA since that lets you combo into 236C or 623C (if you haven't used up all your knockdowns).

Also for starters, 2C 236B~4A tends to be better than 2C 5C 214B since it opens up more options; You need to hit with 2B or 5C after landing 2C knockdown to be able to combo into 214B but since 2B is your most likely string starter then you have to confirm straight into 2C if you want to retain 5C for the actual launcher, you're using up both of your lows in the first two hits of your string meaning the opponent can just stand and mash everything else you do. By comparison doing 2C 236B means you can do 2B 5C as your confirm instead and take that into a 3[C]/delay 2C mixup which seems to work for me pretty much all the time. You can delay 5C super late for some reason.

[Shadow Ninja 64]

Ending in 214AAA seems like a pretty bad default route to use since it doesn't allow you to end in super (and Byakuya builds meter like crazy) or even really do anything significant on oki. IMO it is better to end in 2B 236AAA since that lets you combo into 236C or 623C (if you haven't used up all your knockdowns).

The reason to end in 214AAA (and to learn the 4 web combos in general) is to win the battle for GRD, which is such an important resource that, depending on the state of the match, it is completely worth giving up damage and even oki for.  I think any complete Byakuya combo list will need to have combos for every starter addressing the following:

 

- Best meterless damage

- If not the same as the first category, the 4 web combos for maximizing GRD swing

- Best metered damage into 236C

- Best metered damage into 623C into DashC or 3[C] into webs for oki pressure

 

Carry toward the corner is also an important factor, but I didn't separate it out there because most of the 4 web combos have extremely solid screen travel already, and they can all be converted to end in 2B XX Rekkas XX 236C for metered damage by giving up the final 214AAA if you so desire, too.  

[Justice7541]

You're already draining 4 GRD with the combo and stealing 3 for a 7 GRD advantage, I'm not sure adding an extra web on top of that at the cost of oki/damage is worth it since you're already pretty much guaranteed to win the next vorpal.

That said it's a pretty minor thing since it basically boils down to whether you want to end with another web or rekkas > super, it doesn't actually change the route that much unless you're aiming to drop another knockdown rep into 623C for better oki setup.

[Wonder_Chef]

I'm having a lot of trouble recently with the fact that his pokes have huge hurtboxes on them, plus the fact that nothing of his is invincible except for Veil Off.

 

I feel like there are certain pressure situations that he gets absolutely wrecked in because of this, anyone have any ideas?

[Ryd']

I'm having a lot of trouble recently with the fact that his pokes have huge hurtboxes on them, plus the fact that nothing of his is invincible except for Veil Off.

 

I feel like there are certain pressure situations that he gets absolutely wrecked in because of this, anyone have any ideas?

 

If you read a hole in pressure, you can 623C out depending on spacing; it's a risky move, but Byakuya doesn't have any safe ways out once he's pinned down.  Your only alternatives are universal mechanics: the shield bunker (214D), which will GRD break you and burn meter if you don't have Vorpal; Veil Off, which requires meter; or shielding to create holes that you can poke/escape from.

[TD]

None beside learn to block really and use the system mechanics to their fullest. Rush down in this game against those without a dp is extremely oppressive and you just have to deal with that fact. Best to sub someone with a dp honestly. Don't be discouraged if you get knocked down once and die, because that is just how the game is unless you can correctly predict an escape method and use it. Defensive mechanics are just as risky as blocking if not more so due to byakuya only having veil off, shield and GRD/100 heat counter; all riskier than the reward they give. His neutral simply does not compensate for the risk he has to take on his own wakeup like say, Hilda who can get her game going off a successful veil off/counter, and she's considered low tier (though that is up in the air, she certainly isn't high tier).

[Wonder_Chef]

If you read a hole in pressure, you can 623C out depending on spacing; it's a risky move, but Byakuya doesn't have any safe ways out once he's pinned down.  Your only alternatives are universal mechanics: the shield bunker (214D), which will GRD break you and burn meter if you don't have Vorpal; Veil Off, which requires meter; or shielding to create holes that you can poke/escape from.

 

 

I don't know about the 623C thing, that requires a lot of time and hoping your opponent is too stupid to punish it once they see the super flash.

 

 

None beside learn to block really and use the system mechanics to their fullest. Rush down in this game against those without a dp is extremely oppressive and you just have to deal with that fact. Best to sub someone with a dp honestly. Don't be discouraged if you get knocked down once and die, because that is just how the game is unless you can correctly predict an escape method and use it. Defensive mechanics are just as risky as blocking if not more so due to byakuya only having veil off, shield and GRD/100 heat counter; all riskier than the reward they give. His neutral simply does not compensate for the risk he has to take on his own wakeup like say, Hilda who can get her game going off a successful veil off/counter, and she's considered low tier (though that is up in the air, she certainly isn't high tier).

 

Yeah, at this point I try to save meter for Veil Off almost all the time, but it's still not the greatest option.

 

Even moreso than the lack of invincibility on his moves, I feel like his pokes have strangely huge hurtboxes.  Like for instance if Vatista does a slow orb off of her 2C, Gordeau can just do his slide (3C) or Hilda can do a 2C and totally beat the fireball, but pretty much all of Byakuya's long pokes (2C, 3C, 2B sometimes) will trade with it even though you're super far from it.

 

Or if Linne approaches with a 66C, none of Byakuya's normals can do anything about it except a super super super early 2C even though they are definitely long enough that it would make sense that they could work.  It's like a lot of his pokes extend his hurtboxes before the hitbox of the move comes out...

 

 

 

Funny that Waldstein has no hurtboxes on his arms even though they're part of his body, and Byakuya has huge hitboxes on his blades even though they aren't, haha.

[Wonder_Chef]

None beside learn to block really and use the system mechanics to their fullest. Rush down in this game against those without a dp is extremely oppressive and you just have to deal with that fact. Best to sub someone with a dp honestly. Don't be discouraged if you get knocked down once and die, because that is just how the game is unless you can correctly predict an escape method and use it. Defensive mechanics are just as risky as blocking if not more so due to byakuya only having veil off, shield and GRD/100 heat counter; all riskier than the reward they give. His neutral simply does not compensate for the risk he has to take on his own wakeup like say, Hilda who can get her game going off a successful veil off/counter, and she's considered low tier (though that is up in the air, she certainly isn't high tier).

 

Oh and to clarify, blocking isn't the problem at all.  I have literally sat there and blocked for like 15-20 seconds against certain people. The problem is that doesn't really get him out of the pressure situation.  I mean he has to get out eventually, and it seems like a lot of stuff in this game on block leaves people in a relatively advantageous position for them.