[UNIEL] Byakuya

[TD]

You block to gain GRD; gain more than the foe within the 15 second intervals and you get vorpal. Vorpal lets you chain shift as a pause button to possibly punish and to gain meter. Or you can counter for free. Both options consume vorpal, so make the best of it.

You get hit or back up and you lose GRD. If the foe gains vorpal while you are defending you are screwed for quite awhile. With enough meter you can of course veil or counter, but counter will get you GRD broken so you really have to make use.

Depending of the player and character blocking can either be easy or extremely hard for that amount of time. In general, the longer you are blocking, the higher your chances of being opened up.

[-Kef-]

When is FM_gagasama gonna post some vids of him playing? :/

[Justice7541]

I've personally felt that in most ordinary matchups (i.e. not Gordeau/Hilda/whatever) he does well enough with just his pokes. Most pressure in this game isn't actually + on block, most 5A/2A rebeats are -1 or -2 on block or whiff cancel and almost all overheads are around 27f startup making them really easy to poke out of if you can react. Byakuya's 5A is 6f and his 2B is 9f so you should definitely be abusing them to get out of badly spaced perssure; you can beat a lot of rebeat pokes with max range 5A/2B since they tend to be faster than whatever your opponent has that those ranges.

Also don't forget that you can shield air moves to make them unsafe and throw tech puts you at +9. Properly reading the blockstring and shielding the last hit is also pretty much a guaranteed out since shield is +3 versus regular block. Also 5B has a really high vertical hitbox so you can use it to poke out in larger gaps where you're not sure if they're going to jump or dash in.

Having a DP is nice for making them respect your wakeup but I feel like it isn't THAT important for mid-pressure escape.

[bellreisa]

Or if Linne approaches with a 66C, none of Byakuya's normals can do anything about it except a super super super early 2C even though they are definitely long enough that it would make sense that they could work.  It's like a lot of his pokes extend his hurtboxes before the hitbox of the move comes out...

 

hey i think you're talking about me (purple linne)

[Wonder_Chef]

hey i think you're talking about me (purple linne)

 

Maybe, I've played a few Linnes and had the same problem.

[GcYoshi13]

I've personally felt that in most ordinary matchups (i.e. not Gordeau/Hilda/whatever) he does well enough with just his pokes. Most pressure in this game isn't actually + on block, most 5A/2A rebeats are -1 or -2 on block or whiff cancel and almost all overheads are around 27f startup making them really easy to poke out of if you can react. Byakuya's 5A is 6f and his 2B is 9f so you should definitely be abusing them to get out of badly spaced perssure; you can beat a lot of rebeat pokes with max range 5A/2B since they tend to be faster than whatever your opponent has that those ranges.

 

The frame data on page 2/4 says it's 7frames for 5A/2A and 10 for 2B. That is one frame more than the ones you posted.

 

I heard hit occurs 1 frame before hitspark is shown.

 

Which one is the correct one?

[Justice7541]

The frame display in debug mode tells me that it's 5 frames of startup without the first active frame, meaning it's what we'd normally refer to as a 6f startup move.  Similarly, 2B says 8f startup which we would interpret into 9f.

 

Everything on the second page differs from what debug mode tells me by one frame so either:

 

1) Whoever compiled it got it from a secondhand source who was already adding the first active frame in, but added +1 again so it ended up being one frame too many.

2) Everything in debug mode is off by 1f, in which case the fastest poke in this game is actually 6f.

3) Debug mode is incorrect for Byakuya specifically.

[Tari]

Iirc, debug mode counts frames from 0, so you have to add 2 to debug mode numbers. This issue showed up when people posted Eltnum frame data from debug mode and it was 2 frames off from the hand-counted numbers as well. This is, of course, assuming the debug mode is reliable.

[Justice7541]

In that case we'd have to adjust all the other numbers up by 1 too.  So the fastest jab in the game is 6f etc.

[Tari]

In that case we'd have to adjust all the other numbers up by 1 too.  So the fastest jab in the game is 6f etc.

 

? I was told that debug reported Eltnum's jab as 3f, when it's 5f. If that's not the case, then I don't know what's going on with the numbers in debug mode.

[Justice7541]

I would have to check that.  Either way it's not super important, 5A/2A are 1f slower than the fastest jab which isn't terrible and they have good range so if the opponent is whiff canceling to rebeat pressure you can always put that out and you'll probably chatch them trying to dash forward or something.  That's the only point I was making.

[phangtom]

Not sure if it's already known, but Byakuya can combo off of B+C and charged B+C (Only if it hits them on the inside of the claws) on CH with Dash B

 

Probably not optimised but I've been doing:

 

CH B+C > Dash B > 236A > 4A~C~C > 214C~A~A > 2C > 236AAA (2960) > 236C

 

Going to assume any combo using Dash B should work after the CH B+C. I probably should check if there's enough time to check whether the hit is a CH or not and decide whether you need to CS to get the combo if it's non-CH.

 

Then again, don't really see much point in using his B+C because of all its downsides plus no idea what exactly you're going to get a CH from since some crouch normals still hit him or causes it to whiff. Was hoping the combo would work versus GRD break from the opponent shielding low, but it doesn't.

[Justice7541]

Byakuya setup off 623C in corner:

Whatever > 623C (end up in corner) > 214AAD j.214BB~delayB (press it right as they faceplant after popping out of the web) falling j.B.

Sets 3 webs, j.B safejumps and possibly crosses up depending on timing. If you can get it to cross up and they try to wake up by mashing you can green shield and push them back into the first A web you set and take a free combo from there. The opponent can escape the safejump itself by not teching (delayed wakeup) but in that case you still get a free meaty.

Possibly old but I just discovered it myself so I thought it was worth sharing.

[Zephyrion22]

Here is a basic Chain Shift setup that gets only beaten by reversals. it's a useful variation of what Kurotora did in his matches.

 

stuff>236A>4A>CS>jA

 

For this to work, you need to cancel the first hit of the rekka (anything else can be mashed out) into 4A, and immediately chain shift it into jA. If the overhead is visible in itself, the web still makes this setup largely + on block, even when shielded. If you feel that your opponent is going to respect that, you can still go for a sneaky 2B, or even a throw (the web doesn't connect right away so you can throw before it appears). what's better is that if you do this with a back throw and 4 follow-up, you actually get a full combo in the corner. Only issue is that you really need to be close for this to work, so you should preferably do it while trying to stagger with 5A/2A to avoid being shielded and therefore ending up too far

 

Be careful though the opponent can get out of it with a well-timed reversal, or a shield on the rekka's hit. While the reversal is a reliable option against this (exception being Veil Off, as you'll recover in time to block it, and the opponent will get immediately caught in the appearing web), you should always think of throwing the opponent to make them think twice before shielding  (the rekkas are too fast, so you can only shield this on prediction).

 

You can also rely on 236A>6A>CS mixup : if you cancel the second rekka before the last hit, you get a jA but if you cancel the last hit, it becomes a fake-out jA into 2B

[Diaphone]

Byakuya setup off 623C in corner:

Whatever > 623C (end up in corner) > 214AAD j.214BB~delayB (press it right as they faceplant after popping out of the web) falling j.B.

Sets 3 webs, j.B safejumps and possibly crosses up depending on timing. If you can get it to cross up and they try to wake up by mashing you can green shield and push them back into the first A web you set and take a free combo from there. The opponent can escape the safejump itself by not teching (delayed wakeup) but in that case you still get a free meaty.

Possibly old but I just discovered it myself so I thought it was worth sharing.

 

That's a really good idea, even if they shield the safejump, they can't punish the jumpin because the web hits them afterwards. 

I do something similar, except I do a TK  j.214AAD, then place a grounded A or C web. A web hits meaty, C web some different mixups and kind of boxes them in. To me, doing the aerial version first is better incase you screw up the TK. Also you make them take the meaty grounded web, meaning you can use grounded webs in pressure and not have it erase an already existing web.

[Justice7541]

I'm going to go ahead and clean up the combo list on the Mizuumi wiki. It's full of unoptimized stuff and repeats the same thing like a billion times (it has the same combo listed multiple times for A, B, and C starters when Byakuya already has an optimal universal route that works even off 2A (2A 2B 5C 236B~4A). In particular I want to get rid of the 2C 5C route since that's a terrible starter for a variety of reasons.

If anyone has any objections to that let me know.

[Diaphone]

Here is a basic Chain Shift setup that gets only beaten by reversals. it's a useful variation of what Kurotora did in his matches.

 

stuff>236A>4A>CS>jA

 

For this to work, you need to cancel the first hit of the rekka (anything else can be mashed out) into 4A, and immediately chain shift it into jA. If the overhead is visible in itself, the web still makes this setup largely + on block, even when shielded. If you feel that your opponent is going to respect that, you can still go for a sneaky 2B, or even a throw (the web doesn't connect right away so you can throw before it appears). what's better is that if you do this with a back throw and 4 follow-up, you actually get a full combo in the corner. Only issue is that you really need to be close for this to work, so you should preferably do it while trying to stagger with 5A/2A to avoid being shielded and therefore ending up too far

 

Be careful though the opponent can get out of it with a well-timed reversal, or a shield on the rekka's hit. While the reversal is a reliable option against this (exception being Veil Off, as you'll recover in time to block it, and the opponent will get immediately caught in the appearing web), you should always think of throwing the opponent to make them think twice before shielding  (the rekkas are too fast, so you can only shield this on prediction).

 

You can also rely on 236A>6A>CS mixup : if you cancel the second rekka before the last hit, you get a jA but if you cancel the last hit, it becomes a fake-out jA into 2B

 

I like the idea. Perhaps stuff>236A>4A>D>CS>jA Would be more useful? You get that additional layer that they have to block, and if they are already in blockstun from the first web, they cant reversal out.

 

Also, is the 236A>6A>CS mixup hard to see?

I generally don't use CS in pressure because it means you eventually give the opponent CS. However, CS is useful at the end of a round during pressure, so you get the extra meter + mixup, so I think exploring these mixups has merit.

[Diaphone]

I'm going to go ahead and clean up the combo list on the Mizuumi wiki. It's full of unoptimized stuff and repeats the same thing like a billion times (it has the same combo listed multiple times for A, B, and C starters when Byakuya already has an optimal universal route that works even off 2A (2A 2B 5C 236B~4A). In particular I want to get rid of the 2C 5C route since that's a terrible starter for a variety of reasons.

If anyone has any objections to that let me know.

 

No objections, but I'm curious as to why the 2C 5C route is a terrible starter.

[Justice7541]

Mostly because it deals less damage and cuts off your routes and gives you less time to confirm. If you're doing 2C > launcher > 214B as your default route you're basically locking yourself into two confirm routes:

- 5B 5C 2C 2B 214B, which requires you to get much closer to start with 5B, which on top of being shorter is also slower than 2B.

- 2B 2C 5C, which uses up both of your good lows right off the bat and makes your frametrap with 5C really feeble since 5B probably won't reach, meaning you have to commit to 236B for a frametrap. You also lose the high-low 3[C]/delay 2C mixup off 5C which isn't that great but it still connects a fair bit for me.

It's not like you can't work around it but why bother when you can just do 5C/2C 236B4A for an easier/more flexible confirm and more damage?

[Diaphone]

Mostly because it deals less damage and cuts off your routes and gives you less time to confirm. If you're doing 2C > launcher > 214B as your default route you're basically locking yourself into two confirm routes:

- 5B 5C 2C 2B 214B, which requires you to get much closer to start with 5B, which on top of being shorter is also slower than 2B.

- 2B 2C 5C, which uses up both of your good lows right off the bat and makes your frametrap with 5C really feeble since 5B probably won't reach, meaning you have to commit to 236B for a frametrap. You also lose the high-low 3[C]/delay 2C mixup off 5C which isn't that great but it still connects a fair bit for me.

It's not like you can't work around it but why bother when you can just do 5C/2C 236B4A for an easier/more flexible confirm and more damage?

 

Ahh that makes sense. 

 

The situation I'm referring is at the end of a blocked string.. you do a max range 2C and it hits. I would rather do  5C to hitconfirm it, as after the 5C you have options (reverse beat, command grab, web, rekka etc), as opposed to doing 2C xx rekka.... you have to commit to the rekka for the hit confirm. If it is blocked it limits your mixup options.

[Justice7541]

Ahh that makes sense. 

 

The situation I'm referring is at the end of a blocked string.. you do a max range 2C and it hits. I would rather do  5C to hitconfirm it, as after the 5C you have options (reverse beat, command grab, web, rekka etc), as opposed to doing 2C xx rekka.... you have to commit to the rekka for the hit confirm. If it is blocked it limits your mixup options.

You can do 5C 236B at any range than 2C 5C confirms at though.  In fact 5C 236B works from further away.

[Zephyrion22]

I like the idea. Perhaps stuff>236A>4A>D>CS>jA Would be more useful? You get that additional layer that they have to block, and if they are already in blockstun from the first web, they cant reversal out.

 

Also, is the 236A>6A>CS mixup hard to see?

I generally don't use CS in pressure because it means you eventually give the opponent CS. However, CS is useful at the end of a round during pressure, so you get the extra meter + mixup, so I think exploring these mixups has merit.

 

The issue is that the webs don't hit rightaway, they even actually take a huge amount of time appearing. for the first mixup, the frame trap is between 236A and jA, and even if you summon the web in-between, it only connects after the jA. the real threat here is not the jA frame trap itself but what you can do thanks to the huge advantage given by the web connecting after it

 

For 236A>6A>CS, if you do the CS on the right hits, it's really hard to react to because of the rekka's weird momentum. you can still guard high then low, but the timing i quite strict. It also has the merit of keeping the opponent on his toes as it is a perfect blockstring even on shield. you just give them that much to think about to sneak a throw or another more risky mixup like jA> assault jC

[Nerk]

This character is in desperate need of some exposure. Here's a batch of recent-ish PSN replays from high ranked JP players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bunGoN0LU-A Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk115m0SxUc Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygU50t9nXi4 Part 3

[Nerk]

Mostly because it deals less damage and cuts off your routes and gives you less time to confirm. If you're doing 2C > launcher > 214B as your default route you're basically locking yourself into two confirm routes:

- 5B 5C 2C 2B 214B, which requires you to get much closer to start with 5B, which on top of being shorter is also slower than 2B.

- 2B 2C 5C, which uses up both of your good lows right off the bat and makes your frametrap with 5C really feeble since 5B probably won't reach, meaning you have to commit to 236B for a frametrap. You also lose the high-low 3[C]/delay 2C mixup off 5C which isn't that great but it still connects a fair bit for me.

It's not like you can't work around it but why bother when you can just do 5C/2C 236B4A for an easier/more flexible confirm and more damage?

 

The damage difference is negligible enough for it to be a non-issue. I have my basic BnB from a jump in doing 3140 meterless. It uses 2C - 5C - 214B. The exact same combo replacing 2C - 5C - 214B with 5C - 236B - 4A does 3096 meterless. My corner BnB that leaves oki (j.C - 2B - 2C - 5C - 214B-B-D - land - 2C - finish combo) does 3001 meterless with 2C - 5C. With 5C 236B starter it does 3037 but is much tighter to perform execution-wise because they tech before they hit the ground due to starting with rekka. If i mess up they could potentially forward airtech out of the corner. I don't know if you realize, but using rekka and 214A (instead of 214B) near the start of combos causes more hitstun deterioration, and this will make some combos impossible. For example, midscreen I can do the same BnB using the D web to leave a thing on the ground, but because rekka moves me forward, my land - 2C wont work because rekka moved me too far forward. Positioning is very, very important with this character, and there's a real difference between the two confirms positioning-wise and scaling-wise.

Also, how do you lose the 3C/3[C] high-low just because you're using 2C - 5C confirm? How does that option suddenly disappear? You still got 3C - 2B - 2C and 2B - 3C - 2C. If you already used your 2C before the 3C then you can instead confirm 3C - 2B - 236B.

tl;dr: 2C - 5C is a fine starter, both routes have their pros and cons. Don't remove valid combo routes from the wiki due to personal preference. You should be absolutely sure that something is worthless before doing that.

[Zephyrion22]

Byakuya's official guide with subs. Watch it even if you're not a Byakuya beginner, you might learn a thing or two, notably about web's chip damage

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8RAugPFMUuk