[CT] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[4Corners]

I'm pretty sure your problem is spacing, not timing. Whenever you go into allegretto from a j.2c, it's because you're high up enough that the allegretto didn't drop you to the ground. Whenever you get an allegretto instead of an alle-can, it's because you're too high up. This is either because your IAD isn't "instant" enough, or because you're doing it too slow after the 2c, and getting it during the bounce (I guess?) Also, ALWAYS practice the full combo. Carl's combos are overall difficult enough that you may as well work on the whole thing. I mean, yeah, work on individual loop timings until you've hit them once or twice, or just 3c+teleport>alle-can, but only do it enough so that you see where it fits and how. After that, return to doing the full combo. Just mah thoughts.

[malelan]

yeah, i feel that, for me its always been easier to break up the combos into other parts, but thats mainly because i haven't been able to execute this at all. once i'm able to do this once or twice, i'll wrap it back into the combo. i'm pretty sure my issue is after the bounce, i believe my iad is fast enough, because my combo from the j.2C continues, (solid numbers) i'm just hitting the alle~can too late (full allegretto off bounce) or missing the execution (j.C after bounce) will definitely go again today,

[4Corners]

What I do for input is: j.2c214c The difference between this and j.2c>j.214c is that immediately after you input 2c, you start the 214. Press C once you actually hit the opponent (while still holding 4) and you should fall through them perfectly every time. I'd also suggest learning this combo: 2a+[d], 2b, 3c+22]d[>(cancel 3c with VivA+[d])>link 2b (start moving Nirvana towards you for proper spacing)>[2c, 8]d[]*3>throw loop Though for this combo, 2c>8d loop should only be used as many times as necessary to get the spacing right. No point in wasting Nirvana's health on prorated damage. The benefits to this are that it's less technically demanding (for the 2b link portion, just hold 2b. You should get it almost every time). The drawback is that if you're doing a far 2a, the roll won't go behind them. Especially Tager. Still, for how little technical demand there is with this combo, it's worth learning. EDIT: FUN FACT! I normally refer to alle-can as L-canceling, due to the similarities in nature between alle-can timing+applications and Melee's own L-Canceling, where you press shield right as an aerial attack lands on the ground to cut the landing lag in half. THE MOAR YOU knoW!

[malelan]

thanks, i think that helps alot more, i'll try both tonight and update, i'm all for having alternate ways to launch, especially less technical

[Meaty Moments]

9,6 it's so much easier! THANK YOU! and carl on a game pad is beyond a nightmare. For Soul caliber it's not so much of a big deal (pad vs. stick), as the majority of inputs are double directions (66, 22, 33...) and easy quarter turns... but for this game... wow.

[malelan]

an update, i didnt get to try 2a+[d], 2b, 3c+22]d[>(cancel 3c with VivA+[d])>link 2b yet, i had some limited playing time last night but i was able to get alle~can to hit a few times, its just a matter of repetition now. i also was able to do 2B 3C 2B 2C to launch, its techable, but i caught a few people in that and launched them into loop. i've noticed that in my games that i play, i have a really hard time with teching throws, is there any tricks you guys use to tech? do you keep your two fingers on the throw buttons at all times?

[Siefer]

I'm relatively new to Carl, so if these questions have been answers in the 70+ pages before this, I apologize. In the latest Gamechariot vids, we see Dio go on his little rape rampage only losing to Shadow's Rachel at the end (in a very tight match that came down to the wire). Now that aside, there was something interesting I noticed Dio do during these vids: Despite the fact that Rachel can get out of the clap loop pretty easily, Dio was STILL attempting to do it to the Rachels he played against. It's not like Dio doesn't get to play against Rachels either. Is there a reason for this? Does he know something that I don't? The Rachels escaped the loop almost every time. In the latest AutonomousR vids (the ones with R-1's Noel), R-1 attempts multiple times to do Noel's air super to, I'm assuming, get out of the throw loop. He fails every time except once, but the time it "worked" I believe was more of a fault of the Carl's execution than anything else. Again, it's not like R-1 doesn't know this match-up (he plays against Dio's Carl), so is there a reason why he's doing this? Thanks for the help and insight.

[Yoru13]

I'm not tourney level, so my opinion might be wrong. But here's my observation. For the Rachel match-up: Yea, Rachel can get out of the throw loop, but it uses some of her drive. And when that runs out, Rachel's offense gets crippled, AND Carl can now start his throw loop. So unless the Rachel is near death, the Carl will go for the throw loop always. For AutonomousR: The biggest goal is so that when Noel drops her offense, the Carl player will use a Clap or make Nirvana move in some way. So when the Carl thinks it's safe to move Nirvana, R-1 does an air super to get a shit load of damage on her. If the robot's down, Carl is pretty much is done. Hope that helps or is remotely right. ^_^

[mynus]

I play Alzarath's Rachel all the time and there is no reason that if you've looped/comboed her to the point where she can tech that you wouldnt try to grab her into clap trap. basically its up to THEM if they get hit by it or not. I usually change up the timimg of the clap to confuse. Also when Rachel does wind diagonally down forward/back, she is still in between Carl and Nirvana, and they have to be careful not to do anything reckless after or risk getting comboed/looped again. And ur second question is most likely he is trying everything not to die. Her air super is invincible until the screen freezes.

[Diveman]

I think carl should always aim for the clap trap con rachel, because it oblies her to waste 1 wind stock if they want to avoid damage

[Kyle]

Against Rachel: It forces her to lose resources...definitely worth it at the very end of a combo. Against Noel: I assume she is hoping Carl fucked up. It's a "fighting chance". =/ As a carl player I am peachy If noel chooses to waste 50% tension. =D

[Siefer]

I'm not tourney level, so my opinion might be wrong. But here's my observation.

For the Rachel match-up: Yea, Rachel can get out of the throw loop, but it uses some of her drive. And when that runs out, Rachel's offense gets crippled, AND Carl can now start his throw loop. So unless the Rachel is near death, the Carl will go for the throw loop always.

For AutonomousR: The biggest goal is so that when Noel drops her offense, the Carl player will use a Clap or make Nirvana move in some way. So when the Carl thinks it's safe to move Nirvana, R-1 does an air super to get a shit load of damage on her. If the robot's down, Carl is pretty much is done.

Hope that helps or is remotely right. ^_^

I can't speak on behalf of what Carl can do in particular, but Rachel can sit back for a bit and zone while her wind meter builds back up.

I'm not sure you know what I'm referring to. I meant using the air super to get out of the clap loop after an air throw tech.

Everyone else: Thanks for the input.

[Zeero]

Using Rachel's drive is good, keeping her in the air is good (her drive only recovers when shes on ground), no drive = no rushdown is good, sure she can run away but those bat cannons aren't the safest things in the world against 41236D and carl's 236B. And since, its not like you have much more options to end the loop... let them drop to the ground? Might as well go for it anyway.

[Yoru13]

I'm not sure you know what I'm referring to. I meant using the air super to get out of the clap loop after an air throw tech.

Oh, than nvm. Listen to mynus. He's got the right idea.

[malelan]

anyone playing carl in arcade on east coast (chinatown fair)? i'd love to see some decent carl in action.

[mynus]

anyone playing carl in arcade on east coast (chinatown fair)? i'd love to see some decent carl in action.

I play in NYC. CF only on weekends but if u have PSN u can hit me up and play with us. NerdJosh also plays Carl and another guy i met at a tourney but i forgot his name.

[malelan]

weekend nights or days at ctf? whats the bb scene like out there? last time i went (before console) everyone just played sf4 i have a ps3, but bb on 360, maybe i'll pick it up for ps3 if theres a better crowd,

[Mascarpone]

So... Con Anima... Correct me if i'm wrong but this special is almost entirely not worth using because of it's slow walk-down and it's obvious break-ability being a throw. and yet there are some really hilarious things you can do with it if you actually catch someone i'm finding. I'm wondering if, since this is a highly underused move if it might not be worth tossing into a sandwich pressure string. I realize the Stun will make it easy to break on reaction for good players after maybe 1 or two times being caught (at best) but ... this set up is just kind of hilarious. Carl-Nirvana-Opponent 63214]D[ (Catch) -> 236B -> 632146C -> 8]D[ -> Clap trap As they are caught in Con Anima's grab, Vivace to the other side of nirvana where they will be tossed down, and activate Cantata -before- nirvana finishes her throw. As they bounce up off the ground they will instantly eat the gear spinning. Wait a brief period and then activate 8D so instead of the gear's final hit sends them flying, they eat the shock wave. Assuming you were close to nirvanna when you vivace'd through her to use Cantata, you're set up at a good spacing to initiate a trap on some of the middle sized characters without re-launching them as the gear will toss them into the lowers side of the shockwave.. they wont be too high up to loop, and even without a loop this set up pulls off about 4k damage on it's own. i know it's really situational and catching someone in Anima is actually not easy.. but this is just really funny to watch people sit through. If they do happen to break the anima, you'll just be at a distance from them with Nirvana directly next to you if you vivace'd as soon as it connected (and you should have enough time to see this and note waste your heat on the distortion), so i don't see this is being horrifically unsafe... but i'm not qualified to say that with 100% certainty lol. Idk if it's worth practicing. But it was a fun little romp through training today..

[Shiawase]

Is it possible to learn Carl with a controller? I currently don't have money for a stick. :S

[malelan]

Is it possible to learn Carl with a controller? I currently don't have money for a stick. :S

of course, theres no technical limitations, just probably requires more work and stress.

[malelan]

ok, last night was a pretty good breakthrough for me being able to do certain things in training is one thing, but being able to land them in actual games feels like a major breakthrough, atleast on my slow learning scale. i feel like once i do it once in a real game, that ice is broken, and it becomes much easier to do going forward (or maybe i'm just less afraid of trying it more often) last night in normal games i was able to land 5B 6B 623C 5B jc j.B j.B 214C i know that with practice i can get a j.C right before the 214C but the first time i've ever successfully landed anything like that in a real game, so i feel like thats progress, since i'm constantly dropping that combo, and being able to get that extra damage is pretty important for me. i was also able to land 2B 3C IAD 2C alle~can 2C but i was so suprised that i didn't have nirvana in position to trap after that. but now that i was able to do the combo in a game, i'll add the summoning and position in. my play with carl himself has gotten alot better, and i feel like thats the first step, but i need to integrate with nirvana better then i have been. lately my only use has been random anti air, occasional 236236D mixups, and i'm just starting to use 6D loops. i feel like i'm starting to get somewhere though, even though i lose considerably more then i win. someone was asking me questions last night, about what my toughest matchups are, and i really feel like every matchup with the exception of tager is an uphill battle.

[Zeero]

congrats But FYI, its impossible to land 623c 5b jc jB jc JB JC 214C, the jC knocks them too high for 214C to connect. Keep it up

[Code-Nana]

of course, theres no technical limitations, just probably requires more work and stress.

I play Carl just fine on a controller. Although my thumbs DO start hurting after awhile. I've had a soreness in my left-thumb for quite awhile now. xD

(I use the analog. Not the D-Pad)

[malelan]

congrats

But FYI, its impossible to land 623c 5b jc jB jc JB JC 214C, the jC knocks them too high for 214C to connect.

Keep it up

so is j.B j.B 214C the method of choice?

[malelan]

I play Carl just fine on a controller. Although my thumbs DO start hurting after awhile. I've had a soreness in my left-thumb for quite awhile now. xD

(I use the analog. Not the D-Pad)

no promises that a stick even fixes that (my wrist has been bothering me lately)