Zeero Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 A little (well not really) post about what I THINK about Carl and what to pay attention to when EATING THE LOOP AND HOW TO GET OUT that i wrote on my local thread because people are saying i'm a cheap bastard 1. Where you & Nirvana's clap is: Basically when Carl throws and Nirvana's clap is UNDER you, a simple tech + airdash will escape. If nirvana is pretty far back and only the edge of the clap may hit you, you can try to tech and airdash (unless CARL is in the corner, because when Carl throws and hes in the corner, YOU get pushed back away from corner.) Good carl player's wont make these mistakes tho. And always don't eat weak resets with air recoveries from my combos. 2. Height when Carl airthrows you: The higher Carl is, the harder it is to do the loop. Basically its supposed to work like this. When i throw you, you should be at nirvana's height, so that when i airdash, i push you towards nirvana. If nirvana isn't there, i will more than likely airdash UNDER you, failing my loop. Also, if the throw is high, then it takes more time for Carl to land and then he can't do 2C to relaunch. Same logic applies to resets. Higher Carl is, harder it is for him to reset coz it takes more time for him to land, dash, then 2C. If i'm too low and your hitbox is big, you might even end up getting the ground throw-break animation (i've done it more than enough times lol). Resets would also be harder if you have a big hitbox because u'll hit the ground faster. 3. Nirvana's life bar & your life bar: I'm not sure exactly how it works, but i think if you continuously use nirvana, moves actually cost more and more to use. So if nirvana is at low life, and you're at high life, dont even bother teching. Like that buppa vs dio match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPJJZ4qzu4I @ 1:23), theres no way he would have died from the loop with that much nirvana life, yet he teched, ate a reset, THEN died. 4. When to throw-break/burst: If you're gonna burst, do it when you see me start my 2C, thats probably the only safe time to burst. As for throw breaking, sometimes you just gotta take a chance. The corner throw loop seems pretty impossible to escape as i did it last friday, like 30+ hits on arakune lol. But again, if its impossible to escape anyway, might as well just try it and pray i screw up. Its easier to screw up a reset than a relaunch. Also imo, if you're gonna throw break, do it on the first throw of the 2throw sets. This is because if you do it on the 1st throw break, theres a chance that i didnt expect it and then end up airdashing. Or i mistime the dash and end up air dashing. Throw breaking on 2nd throw will ALWAYS let me ground dash because my airdash count is gone and its pretty easy to time (basically my dash gets buffered). 5. Who you are using: certain characters are harder to loop/reset on because of their hitbox/falling properties. Rachel, Ragna, Haku are known characters to escape the loop. I find taokaka harder to loop because she drops pretty quickly. Just my opinion.
Kyle Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 What I've noticed lately is that throw loops are more characters specific than I imagined. We've seen the set-up evolve over the past few months, but I just realized how it's meshed with the opponent as well. ABOVE THE ORB is the stationary relaunch against Tager, H-man & Bang Uses J.B+C to pick up. UNDER THE ORB is best against Noel & Carl Uses 2C to pick up. IN THE ORB is the rest of the cast Uses RC, J.B+C to pick up.
FroggyP Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 For bigger characters like Tager and Hakumen, is it possible to clap loop them fairly above the clap? Mainly I'm asking if they tech, they will get hit with the clap because of their size (assuming Hakumen doesn't counter), can you dash back in and regrab them? Also thanks Zeero for tip #2, I've been having trouble with the loop and that clears up alot of questions for me.
Zeero Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 For bigger characters like Tager and Hakumen, is it possible to clap loop them fairly above the clap? Mainly I'm asking if they tech, they will get hit with the clap because of their size (assuming Hakumen doesn't counter), can you dash back in and regrab them? Also thanks Zeero for tip #2, I've been having trouble with the loop and that clears up alot of questions for me. Keep in mind that those were tips for escaping the loop and not pulling it off But anyway, I'm not sure what you're asking, but it seems like you want to airdash back in after they tech, get hit by the clap and then regrab to start your reset?? I haven't really tried that nor seen it anywhere but my guess is that it would work since their hitbox is so huge... Only on tager though, for other casts, if you throw above the clap, its fairly easy to airdash out if they know what they're doing... Reality is, anything works on tager Kyle: you can also get V-13 with throw->clap->repeat if you superjump the throw. Not sure why you need the superjump, probably because you float more instead of dropping?, but I can only pull it off if i super jump Not too sure what you mean by Under the orb and in the orb though...
Kyle Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 Sweet deal about V-13 on top! See 00:20 for "under the orb" set-up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIb5_CeUsU0&feature=channel_page See 00:16 for "Above the orb" set-up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er8W21xEkVE&feature=channel_page See 01:10 for " In the orb" set-up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nTbINEd9TE&feature=channel_page
FroggyP Posted June 1, 2009 Posted June 1, 2009 Keep in mind that those were tips for escaping the loop and not pulling it off Well I figure by learning how they get out, I can figure out what I need to do (or not do) to keep them in the loop. I always kept my height fairly high, and thus when they teched I couldn't figure out what was wrong. In retrospect its pretty obvious, but I'll do that alot. Basically I'm saying thanks for punching me out of ignorance. Another question, my friend claims that he's seen taokaka interrupt the punching special (236236D) by mashing A. Dunno how much health Nirvana had left, but anyone know the special is interruptable otherwise?
kro_ Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 i thought all bursts dont kill? they actually kill on defensive burst? Late reply, but Carl can kill on defensive burst because he can make Nirvana attack as the opponent gets knocked away. Id_asz always knocks me into the multi-hit drill move on his defensive burst and I'm pretty sure I got KO'd by it once.
CopperDabbit Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 You cannot kill the opponent off of an offensive or defensive burst. The combo has to end, but you can chip them to death afterwards.
kro_ Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 Then I suppose it hit me a few times mid-air and chipped me for the rest.
Alternate275 Posted June 2, 2009 Author Posted June 2, 2009 easiest way to settle this is to try those "tendency to black beat often" combos in training mode with recovery set to back and see if it still happens. I've never seen a black beat combos in training mode which is what makes me believe my statement. I just did this with A.B.A in training mode. I performed a combo like this with the dummy's recovery set to Neutral/Back/Front (all 3, for a more detailed test) and got the miscounted black beat. MOROHA MODE: 2K, 5S, 2H, j.S, j.H, 41236S.... After I land, I've went from one of the following routes loop - j.S, j.H (Sometimes had to get start with 5S to keep combo going) or just for the heck of it (Though this isn't her BnB) 5S, 2S, 412H I found myself in most occassions going into whichever combos from the Moroha Mode starting combo, that the miscounted black beat occurred =/
squirrel Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 Why hasn't the list of pros been updated? You'd think they would at least put "highly damaging loops/grab trap loops in there or something
Zeero Posted June 2, 2009 Posted June 2, 2009 I guess there is miscounted beats then. Thats news to me. squirrel: i dont think first post is up to date... Kyle: Good finds. I dunno how i'll be able to pull it off by delaying the throw that much but i'll keep those in mind edit: i actually just recalled one time i defensive bursted someone into nirvana's 4D and i followed up with a combo and it didnt kill, so likely the chip dmg killed u.
Alternate275 Posted June 2, 2009 Author Posted June 2, 2009 Why hasn't the list of pros been updated? You'd think they would at least put "highly damaging loops/grab trap loops in there or something Yeah, please forgive me. Give me a list of pros that should be added to the first post and I'll update.
NeoUmbra Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Yeah, please forgive me. Give me a list of pros that should be added to the first post and I'll update. Has insane situational damage and pressure.
Kyle Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Pros- Great Supers Burst Safe opportunities Summon and combo with Nirvana in same string (w/o tension)! Allegretto Cancel ... Allecan! Huge Damage output un-blockables on pressure and throw break with Nirvana un-blockables w/o Nirvana Huge combo potential Has Throw Loop Can seldom escape Carl's Throw loop Kara Cancel shenanigans Situational Burst Kills 3 overheads 4 lows Cons- Numerous bad match-up No reversal w/o super No run, w/ awful recovery (hops Like Johnny from Guilty Gear) limited pokes limited anti-Air's limited solutions to situation he's forced into. Nirvana counts as projectile type Lacks speed Lacks significant range w/o Ne~san Lowest HP in the game: 9500 Overall he is VERY dependant upon Ne~san. Than he's a good character. =)
Zeero Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 My comments on above list... kind of pessimistic though. Pros- Great Supers Burst Safe opportunities Summon and combo with Nirvana in same string (w/o tension)! Allegretto Cancel ... Allecan! -> Not really a pro, more like a necessity to be good Huge Damage output un-blockables on pressure and throw break with Nirvana -> hard and impractical un-blockables w/o Nirvana -> 100% tension required and easily escapable by properly timed counters Huge combo potential Has Throw Loop Can seldom escape Carl's Throw loop Kara Cancel shenanigans -> again, not a pro, more like a necessity to be good Situational Burst Kills 3 overheads -> but only 2 is good... 4 lows -> but only 2 is useful... Cons- Numerous bad match-up No reversal w/o super -> Even reversal supers don't have invincibility, but might get lucky and trade hits No run, w/ awful recovery (hops Like Johnny from Guilty Gear) limited pokes limited range limited anti-Air's limited solutions to situation he's forced into. Nirvana counts as projectile type Lacks speed Lacks significant range w/o Ne~san Lowest HP in the game: 9500 Lowest Guard Gauge in the game Hard to get in range with Ne~san if opponent decides to run away Overall he is VERY dependant upon Ne~san. Than he's a good character. =)
Kyle Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 Wait. wut...?... There is guard gauge levels & Carl's is teh worst? You are correct about Ne~san speed. It's molasses.
Zeero Posted June 3, 2009 Posted June 3, 2009 http://s1.zetaboards.com/blazblue/pages/01/#gl As low as a character who flies across the screen with her drive and lower than a character who attacks you from a screen away with bugs/swords. Thats how good Carl is. not to mention: http://s1.zetaboards.com/blazblue/pages/05#negativepenalty Carl can only be as defensive as the fastest characters in the game with his slow hop and crappy airdash/jump in attacks, else he gets negative penalty. and just for the heck of it: http://s1.zetaboards.com/blazblue/pages/05#counterassault The 2nd slowest counter in the game, just behind the slowest character in the game. From my experience, the only way to win consistently with Carl is to get that throw loop down REALLY well, else you've been at a disadvantage since you picked him. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "Nirvana is counted as projectile type". I think i've hit tager out of his 236B which blocks projectile before. Nirvana blocks projectiles if thats what you mean. Another con is Nirvana doesn't block physical hits, she takes them along with Carl.
Kyle Posted June 4, 2009 Posted June 4, 2009 UPDATED_ Pros- Great Supers Burst Safe opportunities Summon and combo with Nirvana in same string (w/o tension)! Allegretto Cancel ... Allecan! Huge Damage output un-blockables on pressure and throw break with Nirvana un-blockables w/o Nirvana -> 100% tension required Huge combo potential Has Throw Loop= DEATH TO OPPONENT! Can seldom escape Carl's Throw loop Kara Cancel shenanigans Situational Burst Kills 3 overheads -> 2 are good... 4 lows -> 3 are useful... Cons- Numerous bad match-up No reversal w/o super -> Even reversal supers could be better No run= hop with awful recovery limited pokes limited range limited anti-Air's limited solutions to situation he's forced into. Nirvana counts as projectile type Lacks speed Lacks significant range w/o Ne~san Lowest HP in the game: 9500 Lowest Guard Gauge in the game Ne~san lacks speed as well Negative Penalty can be gained VERY quickly 2nd slowest alpha counter of the cast Nirvana not "tanking" hit's is due to the game mechanics, not attributes of the character per say. Yes, Tager can IB, Sledge to escape Carl's 6]D[ pressure strings. I'm positive as the characters develop in the next few years there will be numerous exploits b/c nirvana is counted as projectile attribute. I foresee "attributes" being the biggest factor in counter poking and match-ups. <- OPINION... obviously.
Zoogstin Posted June 5, 2009 Posted June 5, 2009 Happy Birthday Zoogstan! Eat Cake, Play Carl. If I recieved a cake shaped like Carl's hat that would be way more exciting than my first drink. Thanks a lot.
Zoogstin Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Thanks a lot. I know its a stretch, but I think I was made to play Carl. His birthday is 5/5 and mine is 6/5. >_>
Kyle Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 There is no "slide" state in BB, but we all know about grounded relaunches. Carl has two common situations for this, Front Throw & 3C. I've heard Rachel, has the tallest hitbox in grounded state. How can Carl utilize this? He could probably pick up with B or C. Is this beneficial? Is any of this a better option... as to J.2C? I seems to me the more Carl develops, his priority is all about rushing to the throw loops. Just three more weeks until I get my hands on the console. Can't wait.=) Going to Maryland this weekend, there will be plenty of BB as well.
Zeero Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 you can pick up everybody with 5C. B i dont know. but all you really need is either j2c or 2b 2c and yes, its all about rushing to the throw loops. The amount of damage he does without the throw loop doesnt justify for all the cons he has
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