AC: Matchups

[Nehle]

Feel free to elaborate. I don't mind good matchups, so if you have any tips or theories on why it is then I'd be more than happy , but my take on it is that it's bad and saying "I disagree" won't change anybody's mind. Dizzy always has to play a risk-reward game with calculated risks but those risks are inherently higher against SL, TE, ED because those three can take almost any random hit and kill you or at least severely hurt you from it, and then they get a knockdown.

[Kurumster]

Slayer is not one of Dizzy's easier matchups, it's definitely a bad one. Nehle is right.

[excelence]

i don't think the match up thread is a place to justifying what's wrong/right @kurum it'll be more proper if u said that if u do agree with nehle rather than "he is right" ... i've never fight any real slayer on /\C before but based on paper/what i know Slayer has the upper hand on this match up, because of the comparison of risk and reward ratio between him and Dizzy and i hates mappas similar to the case before, based on my analysis on Chip match up, i say it's horrible match up. but on reality i do pawn the best Chip player on my area and i do think he play his games right (safe pokes, hit and away, waiting patientlly for any random summon i did)... what does makes this hapen?... other than Dizzy option that i believe we all already know, i think it's strategy/better mind games... Double may have a decent strategy that does work with his slayer match up like i have against my Chip match up that makes him said Slayer match up was a decent match up

[fatewalker]

No

No

Here is WHY Slayer is a bad matchup.

First of all, yes, Dizzy needs to run to set up her game, and Slayer needs to chase her. Guess who gets the tension gain? Slayer build tension like CRAZY dashing after Dizzy, and as soon as he is past 50% any type of careless summon means a dead Dizzy.

Second of all, Slayer HAS options to close in fast, mappa can take him across half the screen in half a second, and if Dizzy tries summoning within mappa range, then that's a free CH for him.

Third of all, Slayer has much better damage output than Dizzy, and he can get into his combos from almost any random hit, while Dizzy needs to get her good setups going. If Dizzy DOES manage to get her summong game going, she can be on the offense but as soon as she doesn't land a knockdown combo on Slayer she's going to have to be on the run - again, and that is never favorable.

Okizeme wise, Slayer isn't as good as Dizzy, but here's the kicker, if Slayer fails his okizeme he is still in a very favorable position because the close-up game belongs to him unless he is in blockstun or Dizzy has a summon. Similarily, if Dizzy fails her oki / lockdown then Slayer is ALSO in a favorable position while Dizzy has to run away and try to find a new opening to get on the offense, all the while chased by a Slayer gaining tension fast.

Sorry fatewalker I guess you haven't played against any good Slayers :\

Karum: you played Dizzy for a month then quit. you have no room in this convo.

yes i have played vary good Slayers. and i am going to still disagree with you.

1.the great part about Dizzy is she dosn't need to tension to do combos. so Slayer gaining tension faster dosn't really matter. also you should be trying to force him in the air by controlling the ground with projectiles. if he stays on the groundyou get free block strings. if he's in the air then theres not much of a tension gain.

2. Slayer is forced to be on the defensive in this match. if you make a two mistake yes he'll kill you. but it's pretty simple to play safe in this match. yes he can us Mappa to get across the screan. learn TK bubble air dash back and j.S. he'll stop that shit quick or he'll be dead.

3. Dizzy will hit slayer more often the Slayer will her. that is because Dizzy has more options to punish Slayers Offense then he dose on her. Slayers strong points are his mix-up and damage. his biggest flaws are his mobility and he has huge gaps in his pressre that are punisable by any character. Dizzy's range makes this punisment easier. Dizzy has all the tools to punish Slayers offence. D Step with 5K, It's Late with 5K or c.S/5P, j.HS with j.S, 2HS with Dash Throw, Blocking BBU, 6K with 2HS, and many others. if you don't know how to punish Slayer thats your fault and not Dizzy's. learn to fight the match up before you can judge it.

4. Slayers Oki is fucking scary! his normals are better then Dizzy's but you shouldn't be trying to out poke him. you should be trying to punish his mix-ups or running away. and Dizzy's whole game is run away then rush, run away then rush. it is a good thing to run away.

yes the slayers i've played are good. you haveno right to insult them just because i disagree with you. the fact that you fear Slayers Oki less then his poke game proves that you have no room to talk about who i play.

excelence's comparison the the Slayer Vs. Dizzy match up dose in fact remind me of the Chipp Vs. Dizzy match up from #R. every one thought Dizzy had that match up one. except Poon the best Dizzy player in the nation at the time found out that if the Chipp player played the match up right, Chipp would win hands down. it's just like this match up. if you play this match up right you'll see that Slayer is not that hard.

[excelence]

i read that as "a lot of blocking and baiting"... and it's still her bad match up for her in my POV and lot's of your option u give is very situational, like TK bubble... i doubt it's a safe option unless i did it on 3/4 of the screen or more, i believe any slayer can punish that with bbu/dot/mappas on reaction, the slayer j.hs v Dizzy j.s scenario also mostlikely it'll never hapen on his ideal spacing just a piece of my mind who never actually fight any real slayer ... anyway this started from "what kind of match up Dizzy has against slayer" few said Bad match up, few said decent... whatever i don't realy care but for the strategy/gameplan on this match up is what i'm looking for

[Gonzales]

Karum: you played Dizzy for a month then quit. you have no room in this convo.

yes i have played vary good Slayers. and i am going to still disagree with you.

1.the great part about Dizzy is she dosn't need to tension to do combos. so Slayer gaining tension faster dosn't really matter. also you should be trying to force him in the air by controlling the ground with projectiles. if he stays on the groundyou get free block strings. if he's in the air then theres not much of a tension gain.

2. Slayer is forced to be on the defensive in this match. if you make a two mistake yes he'll kill you. but it's pretty simple to play safe in this match. yes he can us Mappa to get across the screan. learn TK bubble air dash back and j.S. he'll stop that shit quick or he'll be dead.

3. Dizzy will hit slayer more often the Slayer will her. that is because Dizzy has more options to punish Slayers Offense then he dose on her. Slayers strong points are his mix-up and damage. his biggest flaws are his mobility and he has huge gaps in his pressre that are punisable by any character. Dizzy's range makes this punisment easier. Dizzy has all the tools to punish Slayers offence. D Step with 5K, It's Late with 5K or c.S/5P, j.HS with j.S, 2HS with Dash Throw, Blocking BBU, 6K with 2HS, and many others. if you don't know how to punish Slayer thats your fault and not Dizzy's. learn to fight the match up before you can judge it.

4. Slayers Oki is fucking scary! his normals are better then Dizzy's but you shouldn't be trying to out poke him. you should be trying to punish his mix-ups or running away. and Dizzy's whole game is run away then rush, run away then rush. it is a good thing to run away.

yes the slayers i've played are good. you haveno right to insult them just because i disagree with you. the fact that you fear Slayers Oki less then his poke game proves that you have no room to talk about who i play.

excelence's comparison the the Slayer Vs. Dizzy match up dose in fact remind me of the Chipp Vs. Dizzy match up from #R. every one thought Dizzy had that match up one. except Poon the best Dizzy player in the nation at the time found out that if the Chipp player played the match up right, Chipp would win hands down. it's just like this match up. if you play this match up right you'll see that Slayer is not that hard.

i had the fortune of playing a japanese slayer in a ranbat( he was visiting his family over the summer) and he was really good, based on my experience playing him i would say that you are absolutly rigth on your analysis of this machtup:eng101:

thanx for the input:toot:

[Double]

tk bubble (and popping it with either j.k or b.airdash j.s) is excellent against slayer, as long as he doesnt have 50% tension. if he does btw, dizzy's f.s will clash with dead on time almost every time from any distance except right in front of him. ill agree that slayer's oki is really scary to fight as a dizzy player, but once you've managed to get the first block, 1f jump, or backdash in, he has trouble getting a hit. with crap on the screen, slayer is really going to try to get in through the air (using his j.2k alot to dodge stuff). dont try to anti air him of course, although tk bubble j.k will trade with his j.h, and once hes on top of you again, then your forced to block. so what? just play patiently, knowing that you have plenty of tools to punish the gaps in his pressure strings. i personally love 5k in this match. all in all i think fatewalker hit the nail on the head, and i play this matchup (against a good slayer) quite often.

[CrimsonDisaster]

I've played this matchup from both ends and it's really a matter of who gets momentum first. However Dizzy can't safely just take momentum by attacking since she loses if she tries that and gets CH'd. Don't mistake "well I mix him up a few times and win" for "this is a good matchup." Dizzy mixes up Eddie 3-4 times and wins, Dizzy mixes up Chipp 2-3 times and wins. Doesn't make it a good matchup, it makes it a winnable matchup. Don't mistake the two. Having tools in a matchup doesn't mean you're advantaged- don't forget your opponent always has tools on you, too. Slayer has the edge in this fight. Not a huge one, he just gets to make more mistakes and doesn't have as many ways to make a huge mistake. His pokes beat Dizzy's, he does more damage than Dizzy, he takes damage better than Dizzy, he isn't some lumbering slowpoke like Potemkin, and he has 2-3 different moves he can randomly fish for and kill you off of. Here's the thing. Dizzy can ride momentum and keep pressure/mixups going and take a game. Slayer can do that, too... and he can also just randomly do something and kill you. Dizzy punishing Slayer is like 30-50% at best in most situations, and then maybe 2 corner setups to kill him. Slayer punishing Dizzy is like 60-100% damage, and she dies on the next mixup in all likelihood. The fact that people need to post tricks with Dizzy to deal with Slayer stuff, and Slayer players can just say "you pretty much play like normal" is also pretty telling.

[woki]

Hmm... I'll just add to what Nehle said... 1. Slayer has many options to stop Dizzy when he has over 50% tension. EX: RC'ed mappa, his overdrive DOT (ON REACTION!!!) 2. Slayer has even more options once he's close. Slayers normals are just too good... 3. Damage.. enough said. Okizeme wise... why does Slayer have the same throw range as Dizzy...? -_- It's a hard matchup for Dizzy. And bubble works kinda alright in this matchup, assuming Slayer doesn't have 50% tension. DOT hurts...

[excelence]

Dizzy punishing Slayer is like 30-50% at best in most situations, and then maybe 2 corner setups to kill him. Slayer punishing Dizzy is like 60-100% damage, and she dies on the next mixup in all likelihood.

that exactly what crossed on my mind

[chun_li1]

I've played this matchup from both ends and it's really a matter of who gets momentum first.

However Dizzy can't safely just take momentum by attacking since she loses if she tries that and gets CH'd.

Don't mistake "well I mix him up a few times and win" for "this is a good matchup." Dizzy mixes up Eddie 3-4 times and wins, Dizzy mixes up Chipp 2-3 times and wins. Doesn't make it a good matchup, it makes it a winnable matchup. Don't mistake the two. Having tools in a matchup doesn't mean you're advantaged- don't forget your opponent always has tools on you, too.

Slayer has the edge in this fight. Not a huge one, he just gets to make more mistakes and doesn't have as many ways to make a huge mistake. His pokes beat Dizzy's, he does more damage than Dizzy, he takes damage better than Dizzy, he isn't some lumbering slowpoke like Potemkin, and he has 2-3 different moves he can randomly fish for and kill you off of.

Here's the thing. Dizzy can ride momentum and keep pressure/mixups going and take a game. Slayer can do that, too... and he can also just randomly do something and kill you. Dizzy punishing Slayer is like 30-50% at best in most situations, and then maybe 2 corner setups to kill him. Slayer punishing Dizzy is like 60-100% damage, and she dies on the next mixup in all likelihood.

The fact that people need to post tricks with Dizzy to deal with Slayer stuff, and Slayer players can just say "you pretty much play like normal" is also pretty telling.

QFT, nuff said about the match up.

One thing I like to remind people, most slayers have no clue when they get free damage, when its RIGHT IN THEIR FACE FOR THE TAKING.

And slayer w/ 50% Tension, reduces Dizzys (safe) options until that 50% Tension is gone. It becomes a whole new ballgame (similar to SSF2X Ryu having his super hadoken full charged), and one thats not at all in Dizzys favour.

[Gonzales]

Hmm... I'll just add to what Nehle said...

1. Slayer has many options to stop Dizzy when he has over 50% tension. EX: RC'ed mappa, his overdrive DOT (ON REACTION!!!)

2. Slayer has even more options once he's close. Slayers normals are just too good...

3. Damage.. enough said.

Okizeme wise... why does Slayer have the same throw range as Dizzy...? -_-

It's a hard matchup for Dizzy. And bubble works kinda alright in this matchup, assuming Slayer doesn't have 50% tension. DOT hurts...

he does't have the smae trow range as her, your probally refering to command trow,

command trows gennerally have better range than regular trows, however there slower than regular trows, so when slayer is wasking up a well spaced 2k should beat his wake up command trow

[Nehle]

No, Slayer and Dizzy both have the same normal throw range - 49

[Gonzales]

No, Slayer and Dizzy both have the same normal throw range - 49

really?:8/: huh i've never lost on trow attemps againts slayer maeby i just time my trows better than my opponnent

[fatewalker]

anyway i think we all can agree that we all have differnet ideas about this match up. but that dosn't really matter. we looked at teh Slayer match up closly and have covered it. lets move on to others shall we. also i'd like to apologize to Karum and nehle if anything isaid in my last post was over the line.

[Double]

its like i said, the more we talk about it the better we all get (supposedly).

[Gonzales]

okay so i've played an Eddie in a tournament that was good at doing the unblockable setup after the combo, you know the one where he comboes you and drops a puddle so on wakeup you get caugth, dizzied and IK. I was wondering I know you can burtst but if you dont have a brust can you reversal coffin super since its invincible on start up to avoid?

[Double]

yes, though you can get hit out of that super AFTER it grabs your opponent sometimes. NEVER do it on venom, because his pool balls will do it every time... but for eddie yeah that will work.

[Merilyn]

Would anyone like to share some tips against Millia? Other than Chipp, Millia rapes me pretty bad. I don't have much matchup experience against her, so I'm not sure what to do.

[Kurumster]

Fatewalker will give some good input on that after we play in about a week. I think Zaeris is the only other player with Millia experience. We need a sub forum for matchups.

[fatewalker]

agreed. subforum would be nice. i'll see you at Final round kurum!!!! lol.

[Double]

aha i was just gonna ask about the millia matchup, im assuming its not one of dizzy's better ones. btw how many dizzy's ARE going to be at fr? i know of 5 so far, myself included. i assume alex g will be leading the same char 3v3 team but are we just gonna go by singles placements after that or what?

[Gonzales]

i was wondering about millia as well i've only played one millia player but he sucked so it doest count. As for bridget im wondering is the macthup in my favor or againts me, it seems both characters can zone pretty well but bridget also has that delayed wake,up i have to9 worry about when implementing my oki. What would be the best fish combination againts Bridget HS,K or HS,HS?

[zaeris]

i was wondering about millia as well i've only played one millia player but he sucked so it doest count. As for bridget im wondering is the macthup in my favor or againts me, it seems both characters can zone pretty well but bridget also has that delayed wake,up i have to9 worry about when implementing my oki.

What would be the best fish combination againts Bridget HS,K or HS,HS?

KK fish are better since they go under most of bridget attack.Thats mid screen, when he's using the roll hold an air spike to intimidate your opponent and just set it up with more summons.

to me the match is in buri favour but it's like Axl, if you can score KD its all yours. of course getting there is the hard part.

[excelence]

we seriously need specific character match up last week i go against some random pot and i forgot to use my bubble air space controling on this match up is something Dizzy musn't ignore, and totaly forgot with my option when i'm get kd on his "oh shit!! zone" ... as a result, i got my ass handed over me