Zouf Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Yeah; Right now she looks better, but less interesting. Which is a real shame. =/ Exactly my thought. Every combo revolve around DP whiff route. :\ About Mugen combo, I haven't seen it once yet. I guess seeing how hard it is to gain charges now, players just don't want to "waste" them along with 50 tension
Airk Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Exactly my thought. Every combo revolve around DP whiff route. :\ About Mugen combo, I haven't seen it once yet. I guess seeing how hard it is to gain charges now, players just don't want to "waste" them along with 50 tension Wait what? I thought charges were easier to get this time around due to increased charge speed?
chzchan Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Looking at the combo video, 1 tap is still 0.1 charges. I guess nobody has checked if there is acceleration yet, so I don't know if the charge rate really has been increased. I was using sound cues before with my analysis and those may not be accurate. According to Spinoza, the charge rate has not changed, at least that is what he told me when I asked him. He said that it feels the same. Exactly my thought. Every combo revolve around DP whiff route. :\ About Mugen combo, I haven't seen it once yet. I guess seeing how hard it is to gain charges now, players just don't want to "waste" them along with 50 tension Just be glad they made it easier. I have spent the past few weeks trying to perfect it in training mode since I have never used it in a live fight and I have still yet to get it to happen online. Delay really messes up the DP route at the moment because of how tight the timing is. Now that 623C is made to launch lower, things will definitely be more lenient, though I'm not sure if it was made to launch lower or if the lower launch is a result of the supposed increased gravity in 2.0. Still haven't got a confirmation on the gravity, though.
TheGreatReptar Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Wait what? I thought charges were easier to get this time around due to increased charge speed? Charge acceleration, more combos with mid-combo charging, command grab does more damage so you have more incentive to use it, charge acceleration, charge acceleration. Nah, charge gain is definitely worse
chzchan Posted November 13, 2014 Posted November 13, 2014 Since it is being brought up more I'm going to take a few more samples and see if there really is any now that we have more gameplay footage to work with. The two trials I did with the earlier videos are not sufficient to prove that the acceleration exists, especially because 2.0 charge rate and 1.X charge rate seem apparently the same to Japanese Tsubakis.
chzchan Posted December 15, 2014 Posted December 15, 2014 Though I have been busy lately I have done more testing with charge rate and haven't really come down to a conclusion using the sound cue method. I realize now that the previous tests were not a big enough sample to prove that the charge rate was faster or that there is acceleration. I have tried a variety of footage, but I keep getting numbers either way smaller than they should be, along the lines of how the first few tests were, and around equal to what the rate is now. I think the method is just not accurate. Going to have to wait until console release to use the capture card and frame by frame everything to get anything concrete. Also, after watching all the footage that is currently out as well as getting questions answered by Spinoza and others on twitter, I'm going to make a quick list of the things that Tsubaki gained and lost in 2.0 now that it has been out for a good amount of time. There is still room to explore of course, but this is just for now. + Better overall proration on nearly all normals which means higher general combo damage. Stabilization of DP whiff routes thanks to adjusted launching and increased gravity. New, efficient high damage combo routes using 214D's jump cancellability and Crush Trigger or OD as well as 236D's new launching attribute. Reliable chargeless side switch combos which even work on airborne enemies by using 236C's new cross through attribute. Combo routes will encounter SMP less because regular usage and followup usage for special moves have been divided. Knockdown off of successful DP instead of knockback thanks to new j.214X attributes. 1 charge midscreen air combo extender with j.214D's new bounce attribute that allows it to be picked up with 2A or 623C. 236236C while in OD enables a followup for more damage when used in combos or as a reversal without having to spend charges. More damage off of command grab with damage bumped up to 1200. Conventional IAD route replaced with stable 6CC IAD route. Faster startup on 236X. Lower recovery on j.214X. Possibly faster 5D charge rate. - 22 followup slide attribute was mitigated which actually leads to the loss of a variety of things. Reliable corner oki using j.236A is gone due to 22 followup no longer allowing a link because of the lack of slide. (There is a secret to getting it to link to normals that OTG like 2B and 6C but I have been told that it is very unreliable and hard to pull off and it doesn't make the oki any less impossible to do than it is right now because of positioning problems) Ease of staying on the opponent while close to the corner is gone due to mitigated 22 followup slide, or at least that's how it looks. (Not like it already wasn't really hard for Tsubaki to stay on top of the opponent after a knockdown, but seems like air knockdown is much much more popular now because of followup 22's change) 6C jump cancellability on block was taken away, so it can no longer be used in pressure as a way to deal with opponents who like to use barrier. 214X followup tracking autocorrection is gone. 22[D] followup no longer wallbounces midscreen confirmed. 236C > 5A/2A/5C corner link route still exists but always causes side swap. j.214D > 6C route is gone. Global damage reduction to all special moves, especially followup versions of the moves and D versions relative to their current damage, so adding charges to combos does not add on as much damage as it would currently. 6C damage reduction so conventional punishes deal slightly less relative damage. Stagger resets are gone because of 236D's new launching attribute and the fact that 236C causes knockdown/emergency tech when crossing through the opponent rather than stagger. 22B now knocks back and away on both normal and counter hit regardless of if the opponent is in the air or on the ground which means it can no longer be followed up by 6C with a rapid on normal hit or by linking with a counter hit like it can be right now due to stagger state. 22D now causes wallsplat on counter hit instead of wallbounce so it doesn't look like it can be followed up using 6C anymore? 5A2C no longer connects so 2C may have been made slower and this kills a lot of adlib combo routes. I can add to the list as I watch more videos and get more information, but it is looking like Tsubaki got more standardized damage and combo routes, but had her oki, drive integration with charges, increase in damage from punishes, pressure and neutral (somewhat) nerfed.
CrescentSaber Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 The changes to 6C make me a little sad. Looks like it's going back to being simply combo filler. Overall she seems to be losing some combo routes in exchange for more damage.
Airk Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Honestly, it doesn't even seem like good combo filler, since it seems like they keep reducing the number of ways we can land it.D moves are worse again. I do not understand the point of this at all. I really want to have a long chat with whoever is responsible for this.
Errol Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 ??? 6CC always leads into an IAD combo now and 6CC proration was buffed. and air normals do a lot of damage. it's really important and strong to land 6cc in combos now. I think you can even use RC to good effect now for damage and corner carry - I think it was something like 236C RC 6CC IAD combo or such.
chzchan Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Alright well I knew about the IAD route out of 6CC being stable, but though 6CC was given better proration, it also had its damage reduced like 6C. It isn't abysmal combo filler like Airk is saying it is, but I would say that you get slightly less out if it than you would right now when you compare change in damage from a normal combo to a punish. This may have more to do with the global proration buff than the 6CC change, though. If you look at the 5C punish combo that Kuresu did earlier against Goro, it did ~4.2k plus knockdown. Right now, probably the most optimized chargeless 5C punish does ~3.8k if you go for the knockdown ender. If you look at the max midscreen chargeless damage of a 5C starter in 1.1 and compare the damage to a 5C CH into 6C, the difference in damage is nearly 800. A 5C starter in 2.0 nets her 3.7-3.8k without resources which puts the damage difference between a regular and punish combo smaller at around 600 rather than the 800 that it is at now. Again, not saying it is 6CC here, and the total damage is really great still with the guaranteed IAD combo and the new proration. Just that change in damage is less.
Errol Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 max damage is lower and D specials add less, but combos without D are all greatly improved. Specials are greatly improved too ( Charges and Dives are much faster). the new J214D let's you extend a combo no matter how you land it for only 1 charge, easily. air confirms, for example. being able to put 6CC into IAD into combos, however you manage to do it, adds some greater corner carry and you can do it off normal confirms now. Not just CH starters. Corner carry is really important in Blazblue. Some of this stuff is humongous.
Airk Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Fair enough; I guess I'm not watching the combo parts of these videos closely enough, because I'm too busy facepalming at how crap our neutral and pressure still are.
chzchan Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 I guess things being faster isn't something I could see from videos. Do you mean faster as in startup? Also, you say charging is also faster. Have you actually been able to feel it? I've been getting both mixed data and mixed responses concerning charge speed.
Zouf Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Fair enough; I guess I'm not watching the combo parts of these videos closely enough, because I'm too busy facepalming at how crap our neutral and pressure still are. haha
Errol Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 the startup on charges (236X) is a lot faster! THAT SHIT COMBOS AGAIN I don't know about the startup on dives, but the RECOVERY on dives is much much lower, making them much better neutral tools - closer to EX than they are in CP, where they have quite a bit of recovery. 5d is just plain faster.
chzchan Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Okay that's pretty cool. Now hopefully max range 5CC won't make 236A whiff or 236B not hit before the opponent recovers. Then of course they must have made 236C at least as fast as 236B so that you don't need a crouching confirm for it to connect anymore. Did they make 236D super fast? That sounds pretty great as well. Does the lessened recovery help out on air knockdown enders for maintaining oki? Any hint of acceleration? I remember in one of the videos 1 tap still meant 0.1 charge. Maybe they buffed up the holding rate but kept the tap rate the same.
Airk Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Thank goodness. Honestly, slowed down shield charges was one of my biggest WTFWHYDOYOUDOTHISARCSYS!?! complaints about CP. Oddly, I never noticed how much worse the landing recovery on dives was. x.x
CrescentSaber Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Fair enough; I guess I'm not watching the combo parts of these videos closely enough, because I'm too busy facepalming at how crap our neutral and pressure still are. This. I really wish we had more ways to keep pressure, I get sick of everyone I fight just disrepecting Tsubaki's pressure ALL THE TIME. When they don't know they can its much more manageable but for people who know how crap her pressure is they just mash 2A or 5A out of everything.
chzchan Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 You can deal with that by using propery timed frame traps. Tsubaki is made of frame traps. The opponent even attempting to mash instead of jumping around nonstop should be a godsend. What she cannot deal with is people leaving her pressure by simply doing barrier + up back. That is where she has trouble.
Airk Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 Yeah; Barrier+Upback is Tsubaki's kryptonite. Or would be if she were actually good. Kryptonite implies you have superpowers in the first place. :P
Monarch Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 So apparently the OD version of 236236C allows for a follow up http://youtu.be/jV-5bctVDeA @22:11
chzchan Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 After watching some more of the video, I saw the other Tsubaki, Ayato end a combo with 2C here and again here. I have seen Kuresu and Konan do this as well and I always thought it was just a combo drop. Is 2C a legit combo ender? I mean, it is jump cancellable so you are going to be in the air after the knockdown if you do get the knockdown that is. Probably reliant on the opponent's tech decision. Also one more thing and this one is pretty important. I have never seen the use of CT after a FC 3CC in any of the videos I have watched so far. There was a FC 3CC pulled off by Tera Luna here as well, but nope, they decided not to use CT despite having meter. Do they just want to save the meter or does FC 3CC > 5C > 2CC > CT > etc. no longer work in 2.0? And just confirmed with Spinoza that the CT does not connect on FC. That really really sucks, but man would that do a ton of chargeless damage with the 2.0 proration buffs.
Airk Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Yeah, apparently the character whose schtick is spending resources doesn't actually get to spend meter on combos now. :P I guess it's nice that we can finally double super, even though ours requires OD and our supers still do arse for damage. :P
CrescentSaber Posted March 3, 2015 Posted March 3, 2015 So we're gonna be working that much harder to pressure opponents now. Great. Eh guess we just gotta make it work like always.
chzchan Posted March 6, 2015 Posted March 6, 2015 Konan seen doing j.B (delay) > j.CC (delay) routes. I wonder if it only works on a select few characters, though it does look pretty difficult to do. He actually drops it here on the Ragna that he fights. CH j.C > 5C2C > j.B (delay) > j.CC (delay) > 5C2CC > j.C > j.BCC > j.214A here. 6A5CC6B > 623C > j.236A (w) > 5C2C > j.B (delay) > j.CC (delay) > 2C > 214B > 5C2C > 236236D here. CH 236D > 5C2C > 214B > 5C2C > j.B (delay) > j.CC (delay) > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.214A here. With 236C's chargeless cross-through attribute, incorporating it with RC in pressure extension and mixup seems pretty effective considering how misleading the animation looks. If you look, 236C in 2.0 seems pretty ambiguous visually compared to the current 1.1 236D which allows it to be used in this way. A nice subtlety is that the cross through does not seem to happen until after it looks like Tsubaki has stopped. Then there's also the fact that no indication is given to the opponent about which of the 236X series it is until near the end of the attack. She almost seems to teleport right through them as she looks like she is about to stop, but this probably requires precise timing. Still, you need 50 meter but it feels pretty powerful. So we're gonna be working that much harder to pressure opponents now. Great. Eh guess we just gotta make it work like always. I'm hoping that the new 236D is advantageous enough on block to be used as a pressure extension even if the opponent barriers. I mean, it is no replacement for the loss of 6C jump cancellability, but faster 2.0 charging coupled with good damage no longer requiring resources means more dingles to be spent for other purposes.
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