Kiba Posted March 7, 2015 Author Posted March 7, 2015 I'm hoping that the new 236D is advantageous enough on block to be used as a pressure extension even if the opponent barriers. Nah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXzspItRd9Y#t=22m34s Not only did Tsubaki 5A it trade with Ragna's 2A, but the pushback is bad.
chzchan Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 That was a dashing 5A so maybe a stationary 5B will work? Eh. Still means that you'd need to commit to jumping or IAD pressure in order to stay in against barrier. I wonder why they gave it so much pushback.
Airk Posted March 7, 2015 Posted March 7, 2015 That was a dashing 5A so maybe a stationary 5B will work? Eh. Still means that you'd need to commit to jumping or IAD pressure in order to stay in against barrier. I wonder why they gave it so much pushback. Nah. Stationary 5B is WAY slower. Standing 5C might MAYBE work sometimes (at the very least, it'll put you in a more beneficial position if it trades). The gave is so much pushback because we don't get nice things and because they seriously have no idea what most of our moves are supposed to be used for.
chzchan Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 Okay one subtle buff that I should have noticed before is 2A's hitbox got extended downward and backward into Tsubaki's hitbox. I actually think this is pretty huge because it can be used in place of 2B to OTG. Depending on how exactly the new hitbox is structured, 2A is probably much better at catching rolls in 2.0. Originally I thought that the followup to the new j.214D was allowed because it delivered a slight bounce that gave you the opportunity to catch them with a dashing 2A after landing, but I guess this isn't the case. Probably doesn't matter anyways since the 623C pickup exists. Seen here is Tera Luna picking up a Relius player that delayed tech too long after being hit with 214B and again after j.214A. Just did tests and of course it is not possible on any character in 1.1 with Rachel being an exception. Seems like Relius is being smacked by her calf or her subtly floating book behind her cape rather than her hand.
TheGreatReptar Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Too bad 2A>2C doesn't combo anymore. You could just tap 2A~C repeatedly to OS 2A mash and if one hits 2C comes out and catch rolls that way. 2A~5C>2A~5C seems a tad harder to do. Edit: 2A~5C mash actually isn't that hard. If you do it fast enough it actually auto-confirms into 2A>5C>2C too. This is great.
chzchan Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 That's pretty handy. I got a reply from Spinoza about the 2A thing being confirmed. It makes complete sense now why I see people roll forward a lot less often in Tsubaki matchup videos, though the most used pickup combo is 2A(2/5A)5B > j.B > etc. which I still can't do consistently on the spot. Tsubaki's 2A hitbox should look something like this now.
chzchan Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Completely forgot to point out the fact that 5A and 2A are most likely level 1 moves now. I remember that there was talk of 2A > 2B being possible before from rumors and after listening to the footage a bit more, I think this is the reason why. Each attack level of each type of move has a sound effect tied to it. There are blunt sounds, cutting sounds, etc. and Tsubaki's 5A and 2A fall into the blunt impact sound effects category. Moves like Bang's 2A and Jin's 5A/2A make this kind of slapping sound on hit and this is because they are in the blunt impact category and have an attack level of 0. Then there are moves like Hazama's 5A/2A, Bang's 5A, and even Tsubaki's j.A that make a louder punching impact sound. These moves have an attack level of 1. Currently, Tsubaki's 5A and 2A make the slapping noise. Taking a look at some footage, 2.0 Tsubaki's 5A and 2A now make the punching impact sound. Level 1 instead of Level 0 does not necessarily mean that they are now more advantageous on block because recovery and active frame values may have been adjusted so that things are exactly the same as they are now. I hope that is not the case because bumping up both of the attack levels of these moves by one would make 5A ±0 on block and 2A +2 on block which would be amazing. Likely downsides to this are 5A/2A no longer being auto-frametraps into 5B since there probably will not be a tiny gap like there is now. Nice advantage is there being a slightly larger frame window to confirm off of both of them which will probably be useful against rolls.
Airk Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Half of me hopes they didn't also increase the recovery, which would make 2A plus and 5A even on block. Half of me hopes they did, because plus jabs are stupid. On the other hand, other characters have them. Die in a fire, Hazama.
chzchan Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Plus may be pushing it, but I have thought for a while that both were missing out on a lot of what the other characters' jabs have. I wouldn't mind it at all because she is a rushdown character. Take a look at all the other jabs that are ridiculously long, plus on block, can be used as AAs, have low attributes, etc. If hers can't be used reliably to poke out of pressure due to their structure, they deserve to be good at something. I guess with 2A's hitbox structure change that allows OTG pickups and makes rolls easier to catch, 2A is already being differentiated which is great as well.
Airk Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 I don't know; I don't see anything wrong with Tsubaki's jabs as is - her 5A hits crouchers, which means that it's balanced-ish against 5As that are faster, but don't, and her 2A is...even on block. Which is okay. The only issue is the frame advantage compared to say, Hazama 2A, which has no business being that good, rather like most of Hazama's normals. Anyway, changing the attack level automatically changes the frame advantage, and will make 2A plus unless they add compensating recovery.
chzchan Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 Haha, they could have also given 2A more active frames instead of recovery to make it even. How do you test for active frames? I'd actually like to know how so I can churn out data upon release.
Airk Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 I have no idea how to check for active frames. But a 2A with 4 active frames would be weird.
chzchan Posted April 8, 2015 Posted April 8, 2015 It would be godlike for catching rolls and meatying, but it would pretty much be a pseudo-Azrael normal at that point. Also, testing frame advantage and startup is super easy to do if you can record footage, but differentiating between active frames and recovery frames seems difficult to me unless I am thinking about things incorrectly with how active frames work.
Zouf Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 The only way to get active frames is either by ripping datas from the game itself, or by using a debug mode which will give you these kind of infos, or if ASW gives us a(n accurate) frame data
chzchan Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 How the hell did people get the frame data currently on the dustloop wiki for BBCP? Guessing? Copypasta from Extend? The old data was obtained raw from the 360 versions of the game, right?
Airk Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 How the hell did people get the frame data currently on the dustloop wiki for BBCP? Guessing? Copypasta from Extend? The old data was obtained raw from the 360 versions of the game, right? Frame data comes from a published "mook" with semi-official numbers it in, probably done using the aforementioned 'debug mode'. Though the stuff that's on the wiki is actually from 1.0, since 1.1 didn't have a mook, I believe, so a few things are wrong or corrected based on other stuff. This is also why a bunch of stuff on Terumi/Kokonoe is missing.
C0R Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 The only way to get active frames is either by ripping datas from the game itself, or by using a debug mode which will give you these kind of infos, or if ASW gives us a(n accurate) frame data Nope. Frame data can be found using pretty simple math. Active frames using more math. Mook is just postings from a 3rd party and usually doesn't contain any "official" info. But everyone uses the same math so it's normally right.
Airk Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Nope. Frame data can be found using pretty simple math. Active frames using more math. Mook is just postings from a 3rd party and usually doesn't contain any "official" info. But everyone uses the same math so it's normally right. How do you get the numbers to do the math with in the first place?
C0R Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 If you're asking me how to calculate frame data from scratch that's an ancient and well-discussed topic. Usually comes down to counting out the frames in video capture until you have something to base the original calculations upon. Example: You've counted out that Ragna's jab is 5f. His jab doesn't catch jumps after neutral therefore jumps must be faster than 5f. Every move that trades with ragna's jab is 5f. If jab stuffs a move it's slower than 5f. And it's all logical deduction from there.
Airk Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Right, so pretty much what was said earlier; You're way better off doing this with some sort of assist tool to remove the human f-up element.
Errol Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 huh no. when you have a few numbers you can solve for every other number in the game.
Airk Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 huh no. when you have a few numbers you can solve for every other number in the game. That's not the impression I get. It seems like there are a bunch of numbers that even the mook people apparently can't/don't. Basic frame advantage, maybe, but things like cancel windows and invuln frames seem harder.
C0R Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 They're really not. It's the same math. All the frame data you see on dustloop is submitted by members of the community like Spark, Shtkn and JP calcs like HH. It's actually less reliable to use things like frame counters, which is why the logic solving approach is what this kind of data springs out of.
Airk Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Cool, thanks! So to return to the original question, what sort of test do you use to determine active frames? Like, seeing how negative something is is easy (at least up to a point. No clue how you determine that something is -1 vs -2) but how do you check for duration?
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