[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[stickystaines]

Depending on where you hit from, CH 236H can combo into 6H 236H from decently far. Max range you might be able to only get another 236H afterwards that you cancel into food. Close range you should be able to get more combos.

[Dreiko]

If you don't know what to do, you can always do the mash H followup off of a random 236H. It's sub-optimal but it's better than dropping the combo.

[stickystaines]

Anyone doing any frametrap blockstrings to beat people out who mash after a blockstring?

[mizuiro-kitsune]

I know it's a bit late into the thread, but can someone explain this "critical hit" thing I keep seeing in Sin's combos?  Is it a Sin specific mechanic or does everyone have moves that crit hit?  thanks for the hlep!

[Dreiko]

I know it's a bit late into the thread, but can someone explain this "critical hit" thing I keep seeing in Sin's combos?  Is it a Sin specific mechanic or does everyone have moves that crit hit?  thanks for the hlep!

It's just clean hits like those of the past. They just don't say "clean hit" in the ingame text when you do it any more. You hit with a certain part of your move and in so doing gain better damage/hitstun propertied for it allowing unique clean-hit-only combo routes to be possible.

[NagorbMan]

How difficult is it to space the clean hit? Does it require specific timings in combos like Sol's sidewinder clean hits?

[Silver Mushroom 2]

Hi i just tried Sin i am just wondering about some stuff!

His eating move doesn't have any recovery frames! You always get a YRC no matter when you cancel.

You can dp into the eating move on block and YRC as soon as the block stun ends!

 

Just passing by this thread and this popped in my mind. So, Still Growing can be used as a metered 1 frame mist cancel that doubles as a frame trap, which said frame trap can possibly be used to condition the opponent into not attacking when you do a uncancelled eat charge in their face depending what the recovery is. Interesting.

[king of heart]

Just passing by this thread and this popped in my mind. So, Still Growing can be used as a metered 1 frame mist cancel that doubles as a frame trap, which said frame trap can possibly be used to condition the opponent into not attacking when you do a uncancelled eat charge in their face depending what the recovery is. Interesting.

YRC start in 7 frames which is too much for setting frame traps IMO.

Unless you mean his overhead move from max distance.

That would work.

[SquizzleBopped]

Coming from SF4 here where you can mash DP like a scrub all day on wake up. Any tip or tricks for reversal DP timing with Sin? Trial 15 in mission mode says to input DP then mash P, but to be honest that seems terrible since my normal just comes out everytime. Being its the game developers tutorial and am I missing something here? Can i really just input 6236 then slam on P?

[klaww]

Coming from SF4 here where you can mash DP like a scrub all day on wake up. Any tip or tricks for reversal DP timing with Sin? Trial 15 in mission mode says to input DP then mash P, but to be honest that seems terrible since my normal just comes out everytime. Being its the game developers tutorial and am I missing something here? Can i really just input 6236 then slam on P?

I'm not sure what you are talking about.  

Trial 15 is S > 236HS > HS(repeatedly).  

 so it is not a dp, it is a quarter circle.  And you do mash, but you mash HS not P.  do you have your buttons set right/ are you pressing the right buttons? 

 

As for reversal timing, it's a little more strict than SF4.  try messing with the timing in training room (set the dummy to just run up 2D). my trouble with reversal was doing it too early.  try inputting as soon as you see Sin getting up.

[SquizzleBopped]

Ya my bad, meant 14, but the name of 15 was misleading, sounded like a wake up DP challenge. 

TLDR: Tips for wake up reversal timing, can you buffer the input and only the P needs to be on the one frame? 

[chzchan]

Actually got to try him out at locals today. Wasting the hunger meter with terrible combos is too much fun for me. Will get better eventually.

 

I noticed that I use the pole vault way more often than actual jumping just because I was still feeling around. People complained about his 214S a lot hahaha.

[Linkexelo]

I played the character yesterday and I have a little problem on the okizeme. I worked on a lot of mix-ups on okizeme depending on how I get the knockdown. But, when I went to a simple okizeme (2K 5K 3K 6HS for example !), my opponent use the wake-up throw :/. So, does Sin have a normal which can beat the throw (like Order Sol's 6K)? It can be very useful for conditioning !

[stickystaines]

I've been doing FD stop just short of throw range and do 2C, since its multi hit and active enough you'll most likely catch someone if they try to throw and get an attack on wakeup. You could also do j.D as well, just be aware that you need to do it earlier than you think, there has been so many times where ive gone for j.D and then get CH 5H because they try to throw since it's a bit slow.

[edollarports]

Space 3K. It's nice.

[Villainous]

Little late on this answer but just got the game. 

After CH 236HS you can do 214K[6] 5S 5H 6H into either an air combo or a 5H loop if you can do those. I don't got those yet though lol 

Is there frame data out for him yet? I'm curious what 236K is on block because it looks even to me just eyeballing it, which is pretty crazy it if is. 

Also holy crap he gets a lot of damage off a 6P for free. This character hurts. 

oh yeah 214S.... I'm not sure how much that move will be used at high levels. It seems like parry bait to me, really easy to react to if you're looking for it, but I guess you can see them go for parry and then YRC or something before it hits. Atleast the range is insane. 

[Villainous]

Oh also, 623S 214P doesn't cost any calories. Basically lets you jump cancel your DP for free... that's just ridiculous to me. You can do 623S 214K[6] j66 to get out of the corner pretty easy. 

To combo off j.HS you have to space it so the last hit of j.HS hits them relatively low to the ground. You can link a 2P or 2K pretty easy from there. Just can't throw it out willy nilly like its a pizza cutter and expect to get combos lol

Also note that the first hit of j.HS that hits behind him has significantly more hitstun than the following 2 hits, so if you hit a cross up j.HS really deep you can combo off of it with pretty much whatever. 

[stickystaines]

We dont know exact frame data but we know 236K is at least +1. You can test this yourself with the jump technique. Do Sin vs Sin training mode and record sin doing slide then hold up, then play back and hold up after you block and see who jumps first.

 

I mostly use 214S in the corner after i do a combo, because people just love to jump when they're in the corner, so you get a nice phat combo if they do or you just cancel it if they dont.

 

Yeah, mentioned it a while ago, but crossup j.H(1) seems like a useful tool since that hit will bring them towards you as well, enabling easy combos. I'm trying to work some blockstrings into crossup j.H(1), but the spacing can be weird sometimes since you have to adjust your hop in order to crossup, and crossing up on a standing and crouching opponent seems different.

[Villainous]

Also just found that you can link 2P after ride the lightning straight forward 3 times. You have to make them kinda land on top of the last hit but there's probably some pretty high damage stuff you can get off that with corner loops. Sorry if that's known already. 

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

IIRC special cancels cost 1000 calories so DP into jump still uses 2000 calories, though I could be wrong (the vault itself uses no calories).

[Dreiko]

IIRC special cancels cost 1000 calories so DP into jump still uses 2000 calories, though I could be wrong (the vault itself uses no calories).

Special cancels cost 2k and specials themselves 1k I believe, though similar to how you don't use food for the vault special when you cancel into them, it seems you don't use food for the supers either. Basically, cancels only into calorie-consuming-specials actually consume calories.

 

In other words, Sin be awesome.

 

 

Also, I found out if you rc a move which would put you in the starving animation you will avoid entering the starving animation entirely. Finally, you can combo into Voltic Dein after 236[H] in the corner, it's not useful but it's awesome since I love that move. :D

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

That would explain why 214S RC into food still works even when 214S empties the gauge.

[stickystaines]

So even though you can get a confirm off raw 6H against females, it bothered me that there was nothing against males if you are using 6H in your blockstrings. Well the easiest solution is actually to hit confirm RC. Pretty easy to hit confirm the 6H into RC if you hit or not if its blocked and keep the frame advantage and your meter.

 

Just something else to think about when you're pressuring.

[Dream Maker]

It's just my impression after a few days playing the game, but I already feel like this character is actually gonna take a quite lot of work to be competitive. He has (potentially) devastating combos and a good keepaway game, but is lacking in almost every other areas.

 

I mean, Sin may look hella strong on paper but once you take him out of training mode into a real match it's really painful to see how all the super damaging and stylish combos you spent time working on actually never work on opponents who know what they are doing. For most of those to work you need to get in real close first, which is not gonna happen easily as unfortunatly Sin doesn't have great jump-in options nor does he have any decent okizeme option (on that he's probably the most lacking character in the game right now in my opinion).

 

I'm curious to know how you guys manage the neutral game with him. Personally I got killed too many times trying to get in... So unless my opponent is Axl and I really have to try to get in, I just wait and try to keep the opponent at bay with fS, 2S, 6P, cancelling into Beak Driver or confirming 6P with a combo (when cS doesn't just whiff). Mixing in some Elk Hunt and Bull Bashes at mid range is also nice to get the opponent off guard. Unfortunately combos options aren't great here either unless you get a counter hit.

 

Getting 50% tension to cancel that Beak Driver from midscreen and capitalize on pokes seems like an imperative to me. After that I'm usually able to land a small combo such as fS > 236H RC > dash in > 2HS > HS (delay) > 6HS > 623S > 214S > Eat and go into a ghetto okizeme from there.

 

 

Speaking of okizeme what do you guys use? Personally I am using both dash in 2H and jS depending on the situation. Neither of them are great, 2H is very vulnerable to DPs and jS in particular cannot be set up easily but I don't see many other choices, unless of course you have 50% tension to spend on Voltec Dein. On the bright side though there are ways to eat AND set up these okizemes if you end combos with plain 5H into eat, low air hit 214S into eat, or 236H charged air hit as low as possible into eat. The last two allow you to go into 214K > jS oki, haven't been able to determine yet though if it is a safejump in those cases.

 

From 2H you can go into:

 

- 2D > (236K) > 623S > etc... depending on the range

- jD > 214S > etc...

- 5D

 

And from jS:

- Throw

- 2K > 2H > etc...

- jD > 214S > etc...

 

Anyway since the game is just out I think most people are still searching for a good gameplan with this character but I'd really like to hear how you guys manage the neutral game and okizeme situations with him. Most posts here have been about combos, but doing some more brainstorming on other stuff would be great.

[stickystaines]

Yeah i know what you mean, you land these big combos a lot less than you might think. I think Sin makes such good use of RC that it might be worth it just to try for the gold burst against an opponents okizeme for instance.

 

One okizeme option i use is leap after a 236K knockdown. There 2 ways in which you mostly knockdown with 236K; deep and shallow (actually more than 2 such as hitting at absolute max range, but these 2 you hit with most). If you go into training and do 236K at start position then that's a deep 236K. Walk back 2-3 steps and you'll geta  shallow knockdown. On a deep knockdown, if you do a 214K leap (not cancelled from 236K; let it finish) and dont control it, you are in the perfect position to do crossup j.H(1) and you have to hold back a bit to keep in front. On a shallow knockdown, if you do 214K and dont control it, you will land in front and if you tap forward EVER SO SLIGHTLY you'll get the right position to land crossup j.H(1).

 

Now go into training mode Sin against Sin and record 2 combos on 2 different slots: dash momentum 2PPP 2K 2S 236K 214K (dont control) j.S and then the other combo: 2PPP 2K 2S 236K 214K (tap forward just a smidge) crossup j.H(1). To me this feels pretty weird to block. There is definitely a difference and it's not impossible, but it's quite easy to mix the two since it's pretty subtle. The only thing is that if you dont control to get the j.S, then it's possible for them to duck it it (Sin can at least, dunno about other characters), however crossup j.H(1) will still hit them if they decide to crouch an expected j.S and you can always control it to go backwards a bit.

 

If you go the j.S way then you still get the options that you described in your post about j.S and with the crossup, you should be able to confirm from j.H(1) 2K whether you got the hit or not and 2K is even on block afaik.

 

Continuing with leap stuff, if you do 236K > 236H > 214K on block, you end up in the same situation as a shallow 236K knockdown into 214K, so you can just press forward a little to get the crossup. However since this isn't a knockdown you run some risk of your opponent seeing it and getting anti air'd, but you also have the option of just doing 214P and hold back to pretty much stay in the same place to try and make their aa or air throw whiff. Could also just cancel into another move as well. I feel it's a bit gimmicky but there is a lot for your opponent to think about, so i think it has its place. I think leap stuff is still unexplored though to be honest. Feels like you can do a lot more with this move.

 

Overall though i think Sin will eventually be focused on frametraps and poking. He has good normals and specials for frametrap potential. Block string into 2K > 236K is nice to catch people mashing and score a CH 236K which leads to decent damage. Can also delay 2S into 236K to make that a frametrap too. 2K is even on block and and so is 2D, so you can end your strings with these a frametrap with f.S. 236K itself is also + on block as well a 6H and 2P so these are also good moves to trap with. Something like dash 2PP 3K 6H can land a CH 3K which will combo.

 

I also catch a lot of people with 214S because they try to escape the corner by jumping out. This feels like one of those things that people will eventually learn to deal with better, but 214S is still a great move to catch people jumping regardless; especially since it leads to a billion damage.