[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[Villainous]

Yeah 6P into cS is the problem, cS doesn't hit from a lot of ranges / heights. I guess we can assume 6P will USUALLY be a counterhit though and just go into 214S? Its also a tech trap if they tech out of normal hit 6P. 

Regarding Bedman falling out of Sin's special spam combo, a lot of characters do that. You can atleast go into 623S > 236H after a 236K on those characters to get a little extra damage. So like: 5S 236H 236K 623S 236H. Its a little less than his standard BNB but its still something. If you start with a 236K hit though, you either have to RC for damage or just take the knockdown / oki afterwards. 

Bedman in general has a weird / annoying hitbox though. 

[BatousaiJ]

How's your meter management going for you guys? I mean actual meter and not the hunger one which feels like something that will come with experience as you get a feel for how much hunger everything takes in your combo paths and gatlings. 

 

I find myself mostly saving up 50 to RC for damage and carry extender off of any midscreen 236H ending up something along the lines of 220ish damage which is solid. 5S > 236H or 2S > 236H is the most common way since you can't even combo into 236K at the max range so it's worthwhile to spend the meter for all the benefits there.

 

I've seen some videos of using his 236236P super for corner pressure which looked nice enough if you can afford it but I haven't gotten a good handle on being able to use that oki option while still having enough hunger to actually get a good confirm after successful mixup since most of the time you won't be able to eat when you're setting this up. 

 

I've seen some scenarios where you sacrifice damage so you can eat and still get 236236P to meaty in the corner mostly by using 214S as the ender but from what I've found so far, the damage you miss out is significant enough to the point I'm not sure if it's worth it. 

[Dreiko]

I find pole vault>air Dein>airdash is the best way to meaty after a combo since the downward-moving dein will not allow people to low profile it with grand viper moves and the like.

 

 

Regarding meter management, if I'm winning it usually goes into rc or RTL combos off of weird hits, if it's evenish it usually goes to supplement my pressure through stuff>rc>eat on block to maintain momentum. I also will occasionally YRC eating to cause people who airdashed at me to get 6Pd.

 

 

 

 

As for 6P countering, no, do NOT assume that it will counter. More than not (in like, 70% of cases) it does not counter. You wanna get used to simply visually judging the distance and confirming it based on that judgement. If it's too far for cS to come out, just do fS 236H or RC it. The only issue with 6P really is that vs some chars in some very rare and specific range, you'll get cS off of it but it will be too far to hit. I've had it happen but it's super rare so while it's not a big problem, it's something worth noting.

[Villainous]

I don't really use his meter for anything other than defensive stuff like blowbacks and parry. Otherwise I just save it for beak driver > RC > eat most of the time since I feel like he needs that to get calories in matches where he fails to get an opening off of his first few specials. 

Plus Sin has a strong neutral so I feel like blowback just puts the match back to where you want it. 

Fireball super is good if you have a bunch of meter and the match is almost over, can be decent to catch people jumping IE you use it after they use all of their jump options and are forced to block it. Otherwise I don't really feel like he needs it. You can use it to convert air confirms into ground combos mid screen too, so that's a good option.

RTL is ok for confirming off rising j.H or as an air to air when nothing else will combo. Aslo a combo ender but the damage is so minimal as an ender I don't think its worth it, especially considering you can't eat afterwards. Only use it if its going to kill IMO. 

[BatousaiJ]

Any good YRC gimmicks you guys enjoy using often? 

 

Outside of 214S > YRC > 2K/Throw, I haven't found too many I find myself using often. 

[extremelotus]

Hey guys I have a question. What tier would you consider Sin to be? And why? As a Sin player I'm pretty curious too know where he's placed in the roster. I feel like hes mid to high tier? But I may be wrong

[MasterXDrake]

Hey guys I have a question. What tier would you consider Sin to be? And why? As a Sin player I'm pretty curious too know where he's placed in the roster. I feel like hes mid to high tier? But I may be wrong

Most people agree that hes high mid. 

[NagorbMan]

So, to avoid elphelt's unblockable, I-no can IB the grenade and then stroke the big tree to avoid/punish the unblockable.

Can Sin IB the grenade into 236K? Its also a low profile move like Stroke the Big Tree, but I am not in a position to test it at the moment.

[Dream Maker]

Regarding Sin's tier placement, I'm a bit more positive than I was originally but I feel like he will end up in the lower mid-tier. He's definitely not a bad character like Potemkin but I think he has too many limitations to reach the top, unless people somehow find more reliable ways to bypass them. Those limitations being:

 

- High reliance on food gauge/meter/positioning in order to deal high damage combos, often a combination of 2 of these. While most characters only have to deal with 2 factors (meter and positioning) I feel like this is a minus point for him, and food jauge gets down very fast since you need to use it in combos, neutral and pressure. In most cases I don't think the damage makes up enough for the amount of gauge spent.

- Very few ways to open up the opponent unless you are very close to the opponent which is often hard to achieve.

- More often than not, eating after a combo is mandatory and in most cases it means giving up an okizeme setup, so giving up one of your best ways to open up your opponent.

- Definitely above average neutral, but characters that have better neutral than him (and there are quite a few) are very hard to deal with.

 

IMO the key to winning with him is to manage the neutral game and your food gauge very well and end combos in a way that allow you to eat and keep pressure whenever it's possible. If you can do that then you will do great. 

 

He also has some really good stuff regardless:

 

- Elk Hunt (236K) is retardedly strong both in pressure and neutral thanks to its speed, + block frames and low profile stance. I think it's his strongest move by far and helps in a lot of hard matchups.

- The 236K/236H spam combo that can be confirmed from a lot of things, does good damage and is very easy to do. By far the most practical combo to do in a match, oki is pretty much a no go after it though.

- 6P is probably one of the best anti-airs in the game even if it's sometimes hard to combo from it.

[Tofma]

So, to avoid elphelt's unblockable, I-no can IB the grenade and then stroke the big tree to avoid/punish the unblockable.

You can't avoid it if it's done right. (True blockstring)

[Dreiko]

Any good YRC gimmicks you guys enjoy using often? 

 

Outside of 214S > YRC > 2K/Throw, I haven't found too many I find myself using often. 

Rising jD yrc and food>yrc>6P/5S are good ones.

[BatousaiJ]

Funny how obvious Food > YRC is and funnier how it never occurred to me. 

[mundus]

 

Regarding Sin's tier placement, I'm a bit more positive than I was originally but I feel like he will end up in the lower mid-tier. He's definitely not a bad character like Potemkin but I think he has too many limitations to reach the top, unless people somehow find more reliable ways to bypass them. Those limitations being:

 

- High reliance on food gauge/meter/positioning in order to deal high damage combos, often a combination of 2 of these. While most characters only have to deal with 2 factors (meter and positioning) I feel like this is a minus point for him, and food jauge gets down very fast since you need to use it in combos, neutral and pressure. In most cases I don't think the damage makes up enough for the amount of gauge spent.

- Very few ways to open up the opponent unless you are very close to the opponent which is often hard to achieve.

- More often than not, eating after a combo is mandatory and in most cases it means giving up an okizeme setup, so giving up one of your best ways to open up your opponent.

- Definitely above average neutral, but characters that have better neutral than him (and there are quite a few) are very hard to deal with.

 

IMO the key to winning with him is to manage the neutral game and your food gauge very well and end combos in a way that allow you to eat and keep pressure whenever it's possible. If you can do that then you will do great. 

 

He also has some really good stuff regardless:

 

- Elk Hunt (236K) is retardedly strong both in pressure and neutral thanks to its speed, + block frames and low profile stance. I think it's his strongest move by far and helps in a lot of hard matchups.

- The 236K/236H spam combo that can be confirmed from a lot of things, does good damage and is very easy to do. By far the most practical combo to do in a match, oki is pretty much a no go after it though.

- 6P is probably one of the best anti-airs in the game even if it's sometimes hard to combo from it.

 

If 623S crit > RC > instant kill is not getting touched he could end up pretty high since you can combo into that vs the whole cast everywhere on screen with the right starters.

[Dream Maker]

If 623S crit > RC > instant kill is not getting touched he could end up pretty high since you can combo into that vs the whole cast everywhere on screen with the right starters.

 

I think you should read this if you really think comboing into instant kill is a thing that matters that much in this game:

 

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10040-comboing-into-instant-kills-heres-the-lowdown/#entry874892

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see how the ability to combo into an instant kill while having the opponent at less than 20% health on the last round and while having close to 100% tension can even remotely matter on tier placement. I'm also pretty certain most other characters have a way to do this as well.

 

Besides, a critical 623S at midscreen is not easy to come by in a match without spending 50% tension. You can do dash 2D at point blank into crit DP in training mode, but good luck landing that on an actual opponent.

[Dorian]

Besides, a critical 623S at midscreen is not easy to come by in a match without spending 50% tension. You can do dash 2D at point blank into crit DP in training mode, but good luck landing that on an actual opponent.

6H 623S

[Robawtninja]

I don't think instant kill combos even remotely factor into tier placement let alone something that has a lot of requirements to be met. Although I have to say I have heard a couple people keep mentioning 623S > RC > IK is a thing as if Hellfire isn't required. If someone can back this up that would be nice. 

 

Anyways, I know this isn't about the tier discussion but just wanted to point out that his calorie intake starts at 1k for each special besides hop/eat and 2k for every special cancel from the initial one. Some may know this already or it might've been posted in one of the OPs but it seems that most people still don't know this. If someone can test and confirm with me that would be nice. 

[Dirty Magic]

I don't think instant kill combos even remotely factor into tier placement let alone something that has a lot of requirements to be met. Although I have to say I have heard a couple people keep mentioning 623S > RC > IK is a thing as if Hellfire isn't required. If someone can back this up that would be nice. 

 

Anyways, I know this isn't about the tier discussion but just wanted to point out that his calorie intake starts at 1k for each special besides hop/eat and 2k for every special cancel from the initial one. Some may know this already or it might've been posted in one of the OPs but it seems that most people still don't know this. If someone can test and confirm with me that would be nice. 

236K 236HS would cost 3k calories.

[Fatalis]

Anyways, I know this isn't about the tier discussion but just wanted to point out that his calorie intake starts at 1k for each special besides hop/eat and 2k for every special cancel from the initial one. Some may know this already or it might've been posted in one of the OPs but it seems that most people still don't know this. If someone can test and confirm with me that would be nice. 

 

All specials cost 1k calories and every cancel costs 1k calories.

 

So to go from 236K to 235HS it would be 236K (1k Calories) > (1k Calories for the cancel)  236HS (1k Calories).

[Robawtninja]

All specials cost 1k calories and every cancel costs 1k calories.

 

So to go from 236K to 235HS it would be 236K (1k Calories) > (1k Calories for the cancel)  236HS (1k Calories).

 

This theory is pretty good and makes sense. However on testing, his calorie gauge and specials doesn't quite work like that. If you YRC a special (e.g. 236HS or 236K) before it's active frames then it won't cost any calories. So by testing 236K (1k Cal) canceled to 236HS YRC (0k Cal). If you release the special then it costs 2k Calories. This leads me to believe that the "extra" 1k Calorie doesn't act independently from the specials as a "cancel". Otherwise the above combo would've costed 2k Calories on YRC in the middle and 3k Calories for two specials on completion.

 

I think the specials act on levels or tiers. After the first level or initial special, all specials (minus the stabby) will cost 2k calories. That's just how I feel about it. Knowing how the calories work to the T will let us have better decision making when using specials on pressure/neutral and doing different combo routes. 

[Dreiko]

The cancel cost is a multiplier. It's why you don't use calories when you cancel into non-calorie specials. It doubles the cost but since the cost is 0 you don't use any calories. If just the act of canceling itself used up 1k calories then canceling into 214p/k and supers should also cost 1k.

[Villainous]

Soooooo.... anyone else feeling like we fleshed this character out already? lol

[edollarports]

Not really. Lots to be optimized. No one really knows what's really good to go for half the time on offense either.

[Robawtninja]

Most definitely not. Although his game plan and approach is pretty linear, there is much to be explored for his specials and setups. Combo routes are different based on how much calories you have. Optimization of corner combos such as Beak Driver loops (which is what I'm working on right now). Specific matchups have to be studied as well. 

[Dirty Magic]

I'm bad with him so no hahahah, still trying to refine my pressure.

[Zypha101]

So been messin wit Sin a bit, interesting runs and taking a lot of loses, but those are the processes. Question what are you guys ending block strings with and means of maintaining pressure? Also not sure if posted up, but Mark of the Gear channel has some interesting, stuff in particular the meter management minus lack of translations. Peep game when you guys get the chance, might find some useful stuff.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/MarkOfTheGear/videos