[Xrd] Leo Whitefang General Discussion

[Tomo009]

Good stuff tomo... I didnt know throw range was THAT small. Wow. Ok. But i tested the frame trap you mention and in leo versus leo it gets beat by leos mashed 4H. So im pretty sure it will work in many matchups since leos H is slow.

What does this mean?

 

5HS xx [4]6S done normally is a true blockstring, you have to delay it slightly. How could it possibly be beaten by Leo's slow 5HS? If you mean you are getting thrown, you did the blockstring such that there wasn't enough pushback.

 

5K 5S 5HS even with dash momentum as long as you DON'T dash up to point blanc before 5K, pushes back far enough to be outside throw range.

[Dime_x]

... My bad... I read you wrong. Me fucking up again. I thought you meant canceling into 46H not 46S.

I seem to be having trouble with the notation for GG, my brain sees words and assumes they are other things that they arent... Its weird because i dont have this problem on skullheart but its the 3rd or 4th time its happened here on DL.

[RentalBlackout]

Hmm, 2S is an interesting tool. I wish it had more range. However, it definitely has uses.

 

(Dash) 5K>2S>6K 5K

About 5 frame gap(cause of distance) for 5K. Should catch/trade slower 5Ps/2Ps. There's something weird about using 2K instead of 5K. 5K>2S/c.S>6K 2K reaches the opponent if they were blocking high during 6K and 5K, but if they were crouch blocking the whole string, it whiffs. At least, it did this when I tested on Leo. If they mash it still should catch them though. I suppose it's like SF, crouch blocking and standing block have different hurtboxes, perhaps it's some interaction with earlier/later connection, hence more pushback.

 

You can also cut it short by just doing 5K>2S. 5K or 2K afterwards from here instead. 2S and 6K are both +4 on block.

 

(Dash) 5K>2S>5H/6K

Pretty good frame trap, and I think it's what makes 2S worth using. Gapless on block for 5K>2S and 2 frame gap in between 2S>5H/6K. You should be able to continue into 5K as well, though I haven't tested it. Should catch mashing. On CH, you get a phat combo.

 

(Dash) 5K>2S>Dash Brake>Throw  

There's obviously a gap here but hey, one frame throws, man. Gets beaten by mashing/being thrown.

 

(Dash) 5K>2S>Dash>6K  

After opponents start looking for the dash smoke/sound, do this instead for a counter hit if they try and throw you back, kinda hard to tell the difference, at least I certainly did. Gets beaten by mashing. If you do 2S>6K however. it might urge them to mash into a frame trap.Them false positives. If they start jumping, just Dash Jump>Airthrow instead. I assume that would work.

[Tomo009]

6K being throw invincible is indeed a great property.

 

I can see why ASW wouldn't allow 5HS 6K to be a thing, Leo's pressure would be pretty disgusting if that worked.

 

 

I think a good goal with Leo's pressure is not to aim for more strings as such, but to aim for a throw counterhit > conversion or a [4]6HS or a transition into stance.

 

If they start trying to mash throw (even fast OS like Sol 5K) you could end at advantage and do a 2K or something to catch them with a counterhit instead of dashing in for another string.

[Jocelot]

You guys see Zidane's Leo vs Marvisto? I only got Leo yesterday but I've already learned some things watching Zid play him. 

 

I think it goes without saying that Leo won't get away with nearly as much stuff months from now, but I kinda like his playstyle, definitely reminds me of Slayer a bit.

 

Also, do his attacks in backturned stance count as normals?

[Tomo009]

You guys see Zidane's Leo vs Marvisto? I only got Leo yesterday but I've already learned some things watching Zid play him. 

 

I think it goes without saying that Leo won't get away with nearly as much stuff months from now, but I kinda like his playstyle, definitely reminds me of Slayer a bit.

 

Also, do his attacks in backturned stance count as normals?

Yeah back turned normals are normals.

 

HS isn't special cancelable though.

[Jocelot]

Ahh, I guess I was overcomplicating it then, I thought his P K S H moves in stance had some kind of unique properties or something. 

[Tomo009]

Ahh, I guess I was overcomplicating it then, I thought his P K S H moves in stance had some kind of unique properties or something. 

Well P and K are throw invincible if that is what you mean

 

P and K cancel between each other, S is the heaviest special cancelable move and HS has enough hitstun to easily link into S or stance super

 

@Pwnzor

 

You were correct, I should have just tested it myself instead of going of what I thought I remembered haha

[Pwnzor]

Wait the data posted earlier has stance p &k throw invincible

[Drake Aldan]

http://www.twitch.tv/drakealdan/b/604381497?t=1h50m10s

 

A long set... if you can stand the potato quality. Hopefully I can fix that next time...

 

 

I think I am warming up to 2D. I will have to test it out to see if you can get 236H whiff afterwards, but I was using it as a "counter-poke" today and I think it's not so bad at all.

I bet 5K > 2S > 2D combos, so that would make that blockstring (5K > 2S stuff) more viable...

 

---

 

So what do you think Leo should spend meter on?

 

I've been spending it on Rekka RC extensions... but I'm beginning to think that may not be so wise unless it will kill, even if you get it off of a 5K or 5H starter. (I don't know the exact numbers but they are probably not worth it.)

 

Leo's very momentum-based... Blitz Shield and Dead Angle, perhaps? Maybe YRC to assist in spacing...

 

Maybe doing more Dead Angle instead of going for reversal overdrive and failing would keep me alive longer. :P

[Tomo009]

http://www.twitch.tv/drakealdan/b/604381497?t=1h50m10s

 

A long set... if you can stand the potato quality. Hopefully I can fix that next time...

 

 

I think I am warming up to 2D. I will have to test it out to see if you can get 236H whiff afterwards, but I was using it as a "counter-poke" today and I think it's not so bad at all.

I bet 5K > 2S > 2D combos, so that would make that blockstring (5K > 2S stuff) more viable...

 

---

 

So what do you think Leo should spend meter on?

 

I've been spending it on Rekka RC extensions... but I'm beginning to think that may not be so wise unless it will kill, even if you get it off of a 5K or 5H starter. (I don't know the exact numbers but they are probably not worth it.)

 

Leo's very momentum-based... Blitz Shield and Dead Angle, perhaps? Maybe YRC to assist in spacing...

 

Maybe doing more Dead Angle instead of going for reversal overdrive and failing would keep me alive longer. :P

I would say the 3 main things I would see meter being used for right now

 

1. [4]6HS YRC

2. Anti air combo RRC for corner carry

3. [2]8 RRC when blocked for safety

 

Other things would probably be dead angle (especially against Zato/Millia/maybe I-No but flash kick) other random YRCs and perhaps the occasional RRC/Stance super for combo extensions/kills.

[LockedAndClush]

I don't think RC rekka extensions are a bad choice. BT really makes people think twice, if you're smart.

I had a lengthy set against a competent Sol player two days ago (no recording unfortunately), and BT was the most important part of our games. Often times when we'd get a screen's length away from each other, if I had 50 meter, I'd just plain enter BT by whiffing 5HS. After having his typical Gunflame YRC jump-in offense shut down by BT D, he'd get a little more careful, trying to bait something (jump forward backdash etc), only to get caught by Stahl Wirbel a fair share of times. This OD instills fear in opponents without reliable full screen options easily.

The other big thing with BT was that many players seem to assume certain things about it. Getting careful when you're in it, but really reckless when you just leave it. Many, many counter hit flash kicks.

Overall the biggest strength Leo has is, in my humble opinion of course, conditioning your opponent using simple tools. The amount of patience it takes to get out of his offense is ridiculous, and he can break it up easily into different forms using just as little as 25 meter, almost effortlessly. Kind of like Sol, just with far better blockstrings - but being patient just shuts him down. That's where the idea of making your opponent afraid of BT comes in place. The hard part is that it's less matchup dependent, and more opponent dependent. High level lag free play is a mid tier sentence for Leo. Still, he's hella fun.

[Drake Aldan]

It was bugging me, so I booted the game up again. Ah, lab mode, you never end...

 

Even with the RC 6H stuff we're looking at +60-65 damage or less for a rekka extension... so yeah, probably not worth it, unless it kills... I think this is what I'm going to start doing, personally. I end up almost always doing 236H whiff anyway, so I just end up in the same position (i.e. in BT). Though I guess you could argue that RC lets you keep corner control if you have it... If they don't burst out of it, anyway.

 

I'll probably save meter for YRC, Dead Angle, and Stahl Wirbel.

 

---

 

Yup, you get 236H whiff off of 2D knockdown. I need to use it more, definitely.

That means Leo has his "infinite" blockstring, and he has stagger pressure with dash 5K/2K > 2S... Good to know.

 

---

 

Honestly, I like using BT P instead of BT K as my meaty in BT stance. P has more throw invul frames, i.e. a little more wiggle room (important, online!). You can always do K if you notice them starting to stand block or whatever.

 

---

 

I got it! After Dritt/2D/etc. in the corner, just whiff 5H~hold (like what Locked was doing fullscreen)... There's your BT pressure on their wakeup! Why didn't it occur to me before...?!

 

---

 

So to get this straight with [4]6H YRC: The point is that, after Dritt midscreen, you do it, and then you 236H for a crossup that they're forced to block, right? And then you're left in BT for mixups (or you BT S > rekkas if it hits).

 

Would you do it if Dritt flung them into the corner (i.e. you are not close enough to whiff 5H and go into BT)? Would it be better to just save the meter and walk up 5H instead?

[LockedAndClush]

I always use [4]6HS YRC for oki or space control. Rather than trying to crossup with 236HS every time, I like to take to the skies sometimes - and do either IAD j.D or dash in IAD with crossup j.236HS. The second option is very risky and should only be done when the projectile isn't blocked. J.D is more interesting - if you space it right you can even go to j.236HS from it. Even if they block it, you're free to start your pressure, making it even safer if they're eating the YRC'd projectile.

[RentalBlackout]

Just to note, 5H meaty at it's best is +1, and this also holds true for 5H~H into any action other than walk. Might be better if you just whiff it into 5H~H earlier I guess, but at least we have another decent option.

Have you guys found any success with the the ~P for f. S or 5H? It's somewhat unique, but I'm not sure when you'd exactly use it. Maybe for making them safe if whiffed in neutral? I remember someone saying earlier 2H follow up if blocked is pretty good, but I suppose it's only if they commit to heavier moves?

[Drake Aldan]

Have you guys found any success with the the ~P for f. S or 5H? It's somewhat unique, but I'm not sure when you'd exactly use it. Maybe for making them safe if whiffed in neutral? I remember someone saying earlier 2H follow up if blocked is pretty good, but I suppose it's only if they commit to heavier moves?

 

http://www.twitch.tv/drakealdan/b/604381497?t=4h50m05s

 

Seems like most of the setups I do are unintentional...

 

fS seems to have a terrible hurtbox... and I can't recall others whiff punishing my fS/5H (though maybe I should go look, huh.)

Aside from using it to block DPs in your blockstrings I really can't say the purpose.

It's not fast enough to act as a shield to hold your ground vs most projectiles, honestly (as I said, fS has a bad hurtbox and 5H is just too slow).

You end up having to do it really early, and you're a sitting duck if the opponent didn't actually toss anything at you.

 

2H being 11 frames is your best bet but that means they're in your face, hopefully they don't just sweep you.

 

Someone will think up something eventually, I guess.

[Mal]

I don't see the problem, after a blockstring, 5HS doesn't drag them in far enough to be in throw range, you can just frame trap with a [4]6S.

 

5[HS] also is still a good option. Doing a D afterwards will beat anyone without a 3/(maybe 4?) frame startup move and VERY good timing. Yes characters like Sol and Chipp could beat it, but with very strict timing. And that wont be a problem in all matchups anyway.

 

 

After [4]6S aren't you at negative frames? The throw OS will make them block it, if they are doing it right. After HS [4]6S Leo can be CH'd by a lot of moves, if they IB.

If you use the 6HS loop, after your 5[HS] > D, it's an easy throw.

5[HS] has to be spaced at nearly max range for the throw OS not to work, and in that case it's also not that hard for the opponent to see they they are not close enough.

After testing, 5K cS 5HS delayed flashkick will beat the OS everytime, tho. But then, it's the riskiest option...

I'd rather use the blockstrings RentalBlackout mentioned and use 6HS on block more conservatively.

[burningvigor]

You guys keep talking about throw option select against Leo?  I'm curious what do you mean?

 

I don't play with him, but when I'm against him I'm a little clueless when to attack or not.

[Mal]

Something like 6K+HS. If you are in throw range, you will throw, if not, the K comes out.
Basically if you see Leo doing 5HS or 5[HS] while close to you, you can do that and cover all of his options (unless it's a delayed flashkick)
He can [4]6S (sonic boom), but that will stop his pressure unless he RCs it. If you IB the sonic boom you can get a CH normal, probably.
 

[burningvigor]

Something like 6K+HS. If you are in throw range, you will throw, if not, the K comes out.

Basically if you see Leo doing 5HS or 5[HS] while close to you, you can do that and cover all of his options (unless it's a delayed flashkick)

He can [4]6S (sonic boom), but that will stop his pressure unless he RCs it. If you IB the sonic boom you can get a CH normal, probably.

 

Sorry I haven't bought this char yet.  What is his 5HS?  Is that when his back is turned to you and does an overhead?

 

I mean couln't he just throw a jab to beat out that option select for a counterhit?

[Mal]

This is his 5HS - http://www.hitconfirm.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Leo_Normal_5HS.jpg
A jab will lose, Leo is at -4 after 5HS.

[burningvigor]

Thanks man.  It'll make Leo players a little more honest in their pressure.

[Tomo009]

After [4]6S aren't you at negative frames? The throw OS will make them block it, if they are doing it right. After HS [4]6S Leo can be CH'd by a lot of moves, if they IB.

If you use the 6HS loop, after your 5[HS] > D, it's an easy throw.

5[HS] has to be spaced at nearly max range for the throw OS not to work, and in that case it's also not that hard for the opponent to see they they are not close enough.

After testing, 5K cS 5HS delayed flashkick will beat the OS everytime, tho. But then, it's the riskiest option...

I'd rather use the blockstrings RentalBlackout mentioned and use 6HS on block more conservatively.

Hadn't seen frame data until today, [4]6S is indeed negative on block. Not sure how much from that range, probably still a good -5,-6. However the idea isn't to have it blocked. The situation is rather complicated, so mentioning the counter for everything might sound good, but in practice there are so many variables you wouldn't be able to do so every single time.

 

6HS > 5K c.S 5HS should not be in throw range. Haven't tested all characters but even if it is in range for some, you should be able to change the string slightly to push back further.

 

Flashkick is indeed a really risky option to just throw out there, I don't think it would ever be advised haha. Unless you are desperate for some reason on your own pressure and have 50% for a RRC.

 

I'd use everything my character has, Leo has so many moves that leave him +, plenty of ways to go about pressure, don't need to just keep looping 5HS 6HS.

 

Frame data lists so many different values for 236HS. If I am reading it right, a 236HS that hits in the front will be +1 while one that hits behind will be -ve? Brynhildr stance 236HS also +1 no matter what? If this is true finding good ways into that would be nice.

 

This is his 5HS - http://www.hitconfirm.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Leo_Normal_5HS.jpg

A jab will lose, Leo is at -4 after 5HS.

A Chipp jab is 3 frame startup, though.

[Dime_x]

236H frame data is wonky.

Cant jump test it on block/hit either since the crossup version leaves leo backturned and he cant jump in backturned.

The frontal versio is jump testable though and leo is definitely at plus frames (holding up makes leo jump ever so slightly earlier than the blocking leo)

I dont know how to test backturned frames... First would be to see if chip can punish with his jab and move on from there i guess.

-edit... Wait, no. Leo cant block in backturned... Lol

Idk how to test backturned then.

[zankoku]

You can try mashing bt.D against Chipp jab, haha.