JackG Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 TAGER Matchup Statistics Japanese Ranking: [finput][/finput] yet Personally: 5.5-4.5 Punishes: Air- One way Tager can get in is through jumping at you, usually forcing your guard with j.b>j.c land. Luckily Hakumen has multiple great anti airs, so punish his jump on reaction with 2c (if he superjumps) or usually 6a assuming he's closer to the ground. You can punish with 5d/6d but if he empty jumps he can 360/720 you for punish, so might as well take the safer damage through 6a or 2c. Beware if he jumps and immediately does j.c, it gives him horizontal momentum, causing him to go over you and cause 6a to whiff. Just make sure you keep track of that. Ground- In terms of getting in, Tager has B sledge, 5d, 2d, or walking forward. His gameplan will usually consist of forcing you to guard a 5d, giving him a much easier time to get in on you after that. B sledge and 2d are safe on block (+2 and -1 respectively) while 5d can cancel into A or B sledge so it is safe as well. So all of his ways in are fairly safe, they're all fairly telegraphed and slow to start so you can 5d, 2d, or 6d on reaction (5d preferred.) Against sledge, Tager can hold it and make you miss your counter, so punishing sledge with 5b is usually in your best interest. Mashing on 2d will catch Tager's pressure after he pressures A or B sledge, but he can Buster so it's not usually in your best interest to do that. Tager's super where he spins and ends in the overhead at the end is super easily punishable, and not only that but it usually sucks you in next to him (assuming he's magnetized.) Take your choice of 6c CH or 5c CH into whatever (usually 5c> 623a~a> jc falling j.C> etc.) Counters: Anti-airing: 6a if he's up in your face, 2c if he's higher up on the screen. TK j.214b if he is over you and does j.2c. Airthrow him when he starts doing jump in blocks. Apparently Tager's j.b and j.c tend to clash with 6a for some reason, so watch out for that as well. Zoning: Space with max range 3c and 6c. While both are fairly unsafe on block, Tager doesn't have much to punish you with at max range. Even if Tager IB's 6c and throws his Spark projectile Hakumen will be able to block. 6c outranges most of Tager's normals and is usually faster as well, and even catches his jumps most of the time since he's so fat. If you're closer up, use 5b, because while most characters can crouch Hakumen's 5b Tager cannot. Their game plan: Force you to guard to magnetize you, then get up in your face and mix you up with Tager buster or 5a into pressure resets, heat/2c to catch jumps, etc. Strategy: Space Tager and fight him at an optimal range for you, for me it's where I can land max range 6c and 3c. This is the only fight where H-man is the faster character, so you can really determine the pace of the fight. Stall when you need stars, always keep an eye on Tager's projectile bar gauge and know when you need to bait it. I generally roll out 632146 when I'm zoning with 6c and hit confirm into super if I got it and he gets hit. Tager doesn't really have any good anti airs (except for a preemptive 2c) so feel free to jump in on him and force his guard with j.b and j.c all day (regularly or crossup!) Tager's best option when you IAD or jump at him is to backdash your jump in and punish the recovery with a buster. Tager's backdash is 23 frames long, and only 4 are vulnerable, so time your jump in's accordingly. I usually find jumping and hitting j.a will stuff most of Tager's options off of a frame trap (Buster, heat, 2c) and the punishes he gets on you with 5a is pretty negligible. Poor Hakumen's backdash has ZERO invincibility frames, so trying to backdash Tager's frame trap mixup usually isn't the best since you'll always get hit out of it (unless of course he goes for a throw.) Char specific details: Unlike Potemkin, Tager does not have a double jump, period. That means if he's jumping at you, he can't double jump to bait anti airs and land for a punish. Hakumen's 5b will hit Tager on standing or crouching, so whore it out! Hakumen's j.b and j.c will both cross up Tager if done correctly Will update with more info based on what's found out and how people respond.
zer0kage Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 Is it actually possible to Counter/Super Counter the 2nd part to Tager's spin super? Although it could be misinput/timing, I tried it and it didn't come out most likely due to blockstun. I know it isn't the smartest way to punish that super but some little knowledge won't hurt.
JackG Posted May 11, 2009 Author Posted May 11, 2009 No, I'm almost certain you're left in too much blockstun to act before the ending overhead hit. Even then, the damage you get off of the counterhit you get after the super will be much better than off of a super counter (costs too much tension for what little it does) or a 6d (which prorates anyways)
Kumlekar Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 A pointless note: Haku's air dash + Magnetism = EPIC
Blade Posted July 11, 2009 Posted July 11, 2009 623A will eat pokes and get countered easily, and Tager's command throws will eat anything even Renka if you're too close, so slashing 6C is safest.
Magatama Junkie Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 Do NOT tech after 6c, 5d, or you will eat that stupid air throw. Ugh. 6a was clashing too much for me today. after IAD j.c, he'd throw me upon landing. Maybe I wasn't low enough? Be careful using 6c when you're magnetized. Sucked into a 2d whoops.
Kumlekar Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 This is one matchup where I like IAD j.2C. The bounce back means you won't get thrown on landing if he blocks, and if distance yourself right you can still be in 6C range. What do you guys do at the start of the match? I usually go for a 3C first round, and play a bit more defensive in the later ones.
ryokoalways Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 I backdash. It's his job to come at me, not mine to go at him. If he turtles with me, I gain meter while he doesn't. Of course if he provides opportunities for me to hit him, I go for it, but this matchup I just wait until either he decides to do something, or I have 6+ magatama to beat his face in. Only then will I go on the offensive.
qwerty Posted July 16, 2009 Posted July 16, 2009 it's hard for me to describe it, but there's a range where hakumen's j.C will completely beat out heat knuckle. i'll try to see if i can get a replay of me whoring the shit out of it up sometime. but yeah, even though it is a great tactic, you do still have to vary your approaches, something i'm struggling with against tager. i tend to get nervous and choke when approaching from the ground, since he has 5A, A sledge (which any good tager WILL bait for counters with), 360, spinny super, or god forbid a 720. if you ask me though, this matchup is more or less even. both characters have adequate baits and punishes to the point where i can't contest a clear advantage between either of them.
oda777 Posted July 17, 2009 Posted July 17, 2009 dont know if this was touched on, but pretty sure that hakumen's 2c beats all tagers attempts to jump in (which tager should never do in the first place)
BladeOfJustice7 Posted July 18, 2009 Posted July 18, 2009 I personally find this match the most in haku-men's favor as stated earlier as long as you keep counter attempts to a minimal its in your adantage. From what I have seen on youtube haku-men's tend to lost because they try too much to counter haku-men. I usually just air dash with 2c and go into moves such as gurren and renka and keep attempts with kishuu/enma to a minimal especially when it is in an attempt to grab it will only lead to fail. Haku-men's sword is your best friend in this fight in my opinion. The only problem I have seen and experienced is tager's spark bolt which comes out so fast that you cant seen cut through it since even if you block you you're magnetized. But that can all be solved with watching tager's magnetizing meter since it requires 100% to be fired.
pulsr Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 I just walk forward and mash 6c on him =/, When I see sledge/2d/5d, i just counter it.. =/
Blade Posted August 1, 2009 Posted August 1, 2009 Anyone have a good method for baiting Tager's Gigantic Wheel autoguard DD? My wins would be more consistent if I didn't have this to deal with.
TyrantShark Posted August 1, 2009 Posted August 1, 2009 Knock him down and IAD in. They'll think you're going for jC or j2C every time and wake up with MGTW. Just watch out for Terra-Break or an RC to Grab.
Blade Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Okay...this is all KatsuHayami's fault for knowing how to buffer 360s and 720s into lots of stuff, but what's the logic behind dealing with that kind of throw invincibility short of being utterly cheap with 6C spam?
qwerty Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 jump. maybe tk hotaru if you're feeling ballsy and feel like wasting meter.
faultydefense Posted August 18, 2009 Posted August 18, 2009 Okay...this is all KatsuHayami's fault for knowing how to buffer 360s and 720s into lots of stuff, but what's the logic behind dealing with that kind of throw invincibility short of being utterly cheap with 6C spam? if you can win this way why wouldnt you? use j.b a lot in this match imo, with it and j.a you can fairly safely stay in his face all day. Its jump cancellable with little air recovery (compared to C) and no landing recovery so you can generally jump a throw attempt if you get backdashed. just j.b his face all day. If you get him in a situation that he won't backdash, j.2C is great too (i.e. it'll hit him out of a backdash in the corner sometimes) can also do fuzzy guard tricks, if you can get them used to something like 5B > 2B or 5B > 214B, you can get an instant overhead on tager with 5B > j.B
MisoSowee Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 Okay...this is all KatsuHayami's fault for knowing how to buffer 360s and 720s into lots of stuff, but what's the logic behind dealing with that kind of throw invincibility short of being utterly cheap with 6C spam? j.b>double jump back>repeat worked fine enough vs katsu to have him start spamming sledge. which is 6c-shippu win :D
Blade Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 I've also decided to try that new Option Select thing next time I use my Ds.
MisoSowee Posted August 23, 2009 Posted August 23, 2009 I've also decided to try that new Option Select thing next time I use my Ds. i do it when i remember. i never get thrown out of my counters though. It's always because i do it slightly too early ( i don't use 5d, only 2d) which is really lame. I hope that the active frames get extended a ilttle bit.... :\ (like at least match up visually? ._.) then i eat a CH combo. i have this problem most with ragna, which is my absolute worst match-up. (I'd rather fight Nu than him. but not arakune.... :\)
kensk Posted August 28, 2009 Posted August 28, 2009 hotaru if you had a question, dont even bother, the answer is hotaru.
MisoSowee Posted August 28, 2009 Posted August 28, 2009 hotaru if you had a question, dont even bother, the answer is hotaru. tech trap atomic collider hotaru-j.2cx8 :D
qwerty Posted August 29, 2009 Posted August 29, 2009 I've also decided to try that new Option Select thing next time I use my Ds. kinda unnecessary against tager, since you can (and should) counter sledge and the like on reaction.
Sophisticat Posted September 11, 2009 Posted September 11, 2009 Noob question: how do you avoid being sucked into that DD of his? I've been getting a surprising amount of matches against Tager, and I've found the match-up is harder than I'd thought if you don't know what to do. Good Tagers will always get me in the corner, then 360/720/Throw DD. I can somewhat reaction D his sledge and 2d, but I'm still working on that. Ugh, I hate this match-up.
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