LunaKage

I don't mind weaker oki honestly, as long as her general pressure remains good, that lunge punch really makes me happy though, and 2C freeze is really gonna change things, it might supply it's own oki options as well, 2C > 5DD? Who knows?

In that same vein, if they charge it, I'd assume that would leave enough of a gap to 5B. So I suppose it would be a big guessing game, not something you'd want to do consistently, but a gamble you can make if you notice they like to charge 63214C too much.

Man all the discussion happens when I'm out for 15 hours :c Though I have a bit to add to/further the discussion: While blocking 6B and letting it recover was discussed, would we have enough of a gap to interrupt an attempt at canceling 6B? 6B > 63214C is the main string I see used, so is there a big enough gap between 6B and an un-charged 63214C to CH them with a 5B? or maybe do a microdash 4D? I've never tested this, because getting hit by Mu is terrifying, so I usually just block the 63214C and try to find a way back in afterwards.

None of that please, if you wanna argue about that kind of thing, take it to PMs.

It beats it in Extend, not anymore in CP though.

"Why do I need matchup knowledge?" Right there, is when you walk away and never speak to him again. Also, there are ways to OS Noel on wakeup, that's normally what I do. Even if you don't wanna risk that particular OS, you can just use a meaty grab, a meaty grab will beat all drives, 2D isn't grab invulnerable, the only reason it beats grabs normally is because it's considered airborne after frame 4, meaning if you meaty grab correctly you will beat ALL drives. Once the Noel starts breaking your grabs instead of mashing on wakeup, then you can start throw-baiting her, and then the true anti-Noel wakeup game begins, because now you are forcing them to THINK on wakeup, and as such you will start getting away with the stuff you were trying before, because the Noel will no longer be wailing on D 100% of the time.

I think the thing that separates good Noels from the rest is that they know when to use it, when not to use it, and your options if you used it, but didn't get the outcome you wanted. It's easy to just mash drive, but MASTERING how to effectively use drive is a whole different story.

I almost always microdash that combo. The key words that Lith said "if you're close enough", which means it's generally a good idea to at least do a microdash.

Jin is actually one of those characters that Noel should be afraid of Driving, in general really, but mostly while he's in the air. Using a well placed j.236D will make Noel sad, and that's just one example. I wish I could go into more detail but it's been so long since I've really grinded this matchup, but I remember last time I played ShinSyn he would NOT let me 4D him.

I wish I could play with you guys :c Mac are you taking care of the new generation? You're an old man now after all.

YOU STILL DO THAT?

I know this is the XBL thread, but in preparation for BBCP I figure I should let you guys know to add my PSN: "LunaKage" I'll be playing matches sometime and stuff (Just got my stick dual modded and arted and I'm really hype about it).

not at all, because after an IAD you have all of your tools, after a 2D you only have drive-followups. Also IAD wont get CH by someone baiting it, 2D will.

Actually 2D will just soar over not only the attack but also her opponent. It's not a reversal anymore lol

I love you too guys. At least in CP Noel is gonna be hitting D for mixup and pressure instead of as a reversal due to the changes. Though 4D is MUCH better against ground attacks now, it just isn't a good anti-air anymore, plus they lowered the reward and made it a harder confirm. So good news all around :3 I just want people to love me ;w;

I always chuckle when I get hit out of drive by Tagers 2D, it's the one thing in that matchup that makes me say: "Yep, that was my bad"

Using 5A> 2A is a good os. 5A beats 2D, and if it whiffs through 4D, 2A will beat it before 4D goes active.

This is why it seems like your opponents are always smothering you with mixup that is difficult to block, pressure that is hard to escpae, and throw setups that are difficult to react to online. When your opponent starts regularly doing things like this (Standing in front of you and attacking on your wakeup; doing long pressure strings or using stagger pressure; throwing you; using overheads) THAT IS WHEN YOU 720 THEM. By "be more noobish with your 720s" I mean do stuff like GETB after a neutral tech or GETB as soon as you get enough heat. Your opponent is banking on the fact that you won't use the 720 at a predictable time because you have conditioned them to think that way. Serious advice here.... Once you realize that an opponent is not respecting you do this: block the first attack of their blockstring, spin the stick as fast as you can while rapidly tapping C. This will 720 as soon as there is a hole in their blockstring. EVEN IF YOU DON'T HIT THEM WITH IT (and I'm willing to bet that 9 times out of 10 you WILL catch them), it will show them that you are willing to use that move. After you do this a few times they will start to end their pressure early again and not throw out overheads or throws as much. They will revert to how they were when you first played them. They will be afraid of the 720. And don't feel dirty or cheap because you 720 someone with the above tactic. THEY should feel dirty and cheap for having the audacity to do shit like 2A (gap) 2A (gap) 2A (gap) 66 throw on TAGER while he's sitting on 50 heat. If your opponent is doing whatever they want against you they DESERVE to have their faces slammed into the ground with little to no effort on your part. Once you get 50 heat your opponent will be scared to do any serious kind of mixup against you. They will spend most of their time jump cancelling and ending blockstrings early, making your time on defense much easier. Use the 720 as a check on their aggression. If you notice them being overly aggressive, throw out some 720s until they start backing off. tldr; First few matches against a new opponent: don't 720. After that 720 on wakeup and during their blockstrings. Edit: I have done 2A (gap) 2A (gap) 2A (gap) 66 throw against you. That didn't come from nowhere. I feel that, whenever we play, you should win a lot more than you do (and probably at least be even with me). You just don't use Tager's powerful tools as much as you should. You can pretty much say this about Noel's 4D too lol

Not often at all. Haven't even done it yet :3 I work too much man lol, but I'm sure I'll make a stronger effort to netplay when CP drops. Netplay is gonna be the only way to get any matchup exp.

It's pretty much a lost cause Mac. The only shot I have at netplay is to do it at Axis' house nowadays. You can tell if it's me because I'll be the one playing BB.

Man that takes me back. So you're a Tager player who is getting depressed about losing? Can you do standing 360/720 during your own pressure? Tager players don't start getting really scary until they can do that, baiting command grabs is really easy when you know your opponent can only do it on wakeup or as a reversal buffered during blockstun.

I think he might be talking about the assault through > 446C combos?

it doesn't REMOVE it, it just limits it to only being used for it's hitbox, which isn't a super great choice regardless, but can still prove useful on rare occasions. Also, we can still AA Noel with it if she jumps in with j.C, which is silly.

6A and 4D are your main options when dealing with an opponent jumping in. If Ragna is doing a high j.C, you can hit it with a 4D since 6A is really iffy here, but be ready for your 4D air confirm. if you notice an opponent is jumping a lot as a means of defense, like as you said when you are running towards them, an air grab or a j.A will work wonders.

there's a good chance that you are hitting the 446C too late. so just try to speed it up.