Airk

I'm not proposing we get Ragna style 7+k combos. Blood Kain doesn't end if Ragna gets to 1hp. I had a suggestion about how to manage "fixed duration" earlier on, but basically: Require at least one charge. Use all charges. Fixed duration. If you do 236236D, you get a super with however many charges you had when you started. Even WITH all this, it STILL lasts significantly less long than BK.

I concur; As amusing as going from Mugen into 214D is, people just need to burst a TINY bit later. also, does 5CC > Install > 214D actually combo if they DON'T burst? Looking at the frame data makes it seem extremely precarious. It's hard to say, because the EX frame data doesn't give the cancel windows for D-cancelling. (Also, the way it's written makes it sound like you can do 236D > 214A on block, but I doubt that is true) It might depend on how late you hit in the active frames, but previously 236D didn't behave like that. 236D has 24 frames of blockstun, and can apparently be cancelled from frame 26 onwards on hit, so if we presume it's the same on block, then it...really depends on where you hit in the active frames, I think. Here's what I see: 236D is blocked. Goes from active frame into crossup frames. 24 frames of blockstun starts. Depending on how many active frames have elapsed, frame 26 arrives between zero and 9 frames later, leaving between 24 and 15 frames of blockstun remaining. Cancel to 214D. 214D hits on frame 22, so you can be thrown if there are less than 16(?) frames of blockstun remaining, since that would mean there are 7 frames between blockstun wearing off and 214D hitting. Er. So, 236D>214D should be safe against throws, unless you did it from very close. And I don't think anyone has a 6 or less frame 2A (Foot attribute attack) so... mostly you need to worry about Tager, who can 360A you out of it. (Most DPs don't have Foot.) Edit: Ugh. 236C was almost better in CS1. Super sadface.

Maybe A/B/C versions of this mysterious new overhead could have Foot Invulnerability, to continue to sortof make it the "opposite" of 214X. Not sure how useful that'd be though. Maybe just make them a different cancel option from 236X, so you could do say, the usual 236X > 214X > 22X thing, or you could do 236X > 412X > 22X or something for a different combo path? >brainstorming< Mostly my ideas for a "more solid" Tsubaki are just "reset all frame data to CS2 levels, but leave proration/damage at EX levels" - this should fix her terrible neutral game in EX, but still leave her overall damage at EX levels (which I think is okay?). While I wouldn't -complain- about better damage, I think we need only gentle nudges there, as opposed to the huge boost we need for neutral. (Though I think D moves should have their good starting proration restored.). Tsubaki is, as has been stated a "pressure" character, so we NEED to be able to spend our hard fought meter for extending that pressure. And to answer the specific question, yes, I would, ideally, return ALL special moves to their CS2 "on block" advantage. If absolutely necessary, slide the 236A/B/C series a frame or two towards disadvantage so that you have to be more careful spacing, but that's it. The reduced P1 on those moves should satisfy the whiners with regard to 236C.

What would you keep from CSE? Mugen changes and... fatal counter 3C? 3CC bonus proration? Me, I'd like CS1 22B projectile invulnerability back. Though midscreen 22D wallbounce and jump cancellable 3C/3CC might be too much to ask.

>jarring chord< No one expects the NOL Zero Squadron! Our chief weapon is surprise! Surprise, fear and your total lack of matchup experience! Surprise, fear, your total lack of matchup experience and an almost fanatical devotion to Jin nii-san. Surprise, Fear, your total lack of matchup experience, an almost fanatical devotion to Jin nii-san and this snazzy hat...wait, I'll come in again.

Sounds good to me; None of the stuff here requires you to have like, weird magic Tsubaki history or something.

Just for the record, there has never been such a thing as this.

Requesting editing permissions. I am tired of not being able to fix typos and grammatical errors. @_@

While Kuresu did have a couple of nice reads (though I think the MTW was a setup! ) it really just looked like Akira has a serious lack of Tsubaki experience. There's a lot of stuff that he just let her get away with.

There's just too much stuff going on at this time of year; CEO should be worth attending though, right? I still have time to plan for that, and it can use the "time" I had previously alotted for EVO. :P

So can we get a tldr version of this for us lazy people? Preferably with links? Thankya.

Excellent and very entertaining stream. Congrats to Team Norcal for some very good play. (And for Dacidbro for his awesome moral support bonus ;P ) and thanks to C0R, Xie, Huey and everyone who helped make this happen.

Yes, precisely. So for the 5F of startup, the 3 active frames, and then the first frame of recovery, if he is hit, it will be a counter. After that, it will not (even though he is still recovering). Also, the one other weird thing about hitstop is that it doesn't have to be the same for both characters. Some moves (Tsubaki had a lot of specials that were like this in CS2 - the CSEX data doesn't seem to have hitstop information) stop the attacker for longer (I'm sure it's possible for it to work the other way too, but I don't specifically know of any instances) which means that the attacker is more minus (or less plus) frames than they would have been if hitstop had been the same for both players. This is a sort of weird special case, and I don't know why they do it that way, but it's something to keep in mind.

Just to expand on this, Relius has what appears to be the worst selection of foot attribute moves of any character I've seen. Literally, ALL he has that will hit you out of a 214 is: 2A 2B 3C So...yeah.

I'm kinda curious about the whole "burst bait with 214D" thing too, since as far as I can tell, the best thing to do in Mugen is to spam 623D > j.236D > j.214D, so... uh... how can you weasel in a grounded 214D since you're in the air so much of the time?

There are no good options after 6B except "watch for grabs"; It's possible to jab him out of 6B, but it's kinda tight. But since Jin's DP is so slow, you can actually throw out a 2A after blocking it and recover before his C DP will hit you. (Use 2A because otherwise he can hit you with a B DP) Basically what happens is your jab whiffs on the invulnerable frames of the DP, but since his DP doesn't land until the 20th frame, your jab will recover before the DP actually hits you and you can block. Jin can beat this by using the D DP, or sometimes by doing an A Ice Car instead of a DP, which will CH your jab due to weird hitboxes. But you do have the option if they don't have heat and really like to do 6C > C DP. (This doesn't work for Ragna because Inferno Divider is TONS faster than Rehhyou. You can also beat this with a reaction 214D, but considering the relative reward, you're probably better off just jumping and saving the charge. I guess the ol' "pretend to crossup and then use j.236D to 'uncrossup'" gimmick is too common to bother mentioning? I think the greatest problem I run into with Jin is that he's hard to AA due to his options for changing his jump trajectory.

Sorry; CT doesn't even have Hazama, therefore, it is not half the game even CS1 was.

Wouldn't it just be better to block and punish Gauntlet Hades?

Okay; I'll mark my calendar for next week. I can't really do this every week, so I have to choose my battles. :P

Is anyone going to be there this Saturday? I've decided not to let my complete lack of Extend deter me from experiencing how much it's going to ruin me in person.

Lambda or Rachel can both switch back and forth between 'space control' and rushdown. But Delrian is probably right - you're probably better off working on being more versatile with the character you know than trying to pick up a new one in the hopes that they'll somehow "teach" you to be more varied.

You are correct about repeat proration - it applies to the 2nd use of a move and onwards, and it DOES reduce untechable time, so a combo using two 22Bs will end with less untechable time than a combo using a 22C and a 22B.

I... wasn't even TRYING to argue anything. I was literally just asking questions and then expressing confusion. Anyway, I think I've managed, through all my stupid theorycrafting, to come up with a couple of things that other people hadn't. If the price of that is that sometimes people have to smack me down and say "no, that's stupid." that's fine with me. I still think 623B was -intended- for use as an anti-air, or otherwise the invulnerability frames just don't make any sense. The fact that it's not actually useful as one is regrettable, but I don't really think I belaboured the point or anything. Don't worry though. I don't take anyone's opinions too seriously, so I wouldn't want anyone giving mine undue weight.

Unlikely, to be honest. =/ But there's probably some more undocumented hitstop nonsense or something that makes it work that way. Sorry; Generic "you" as in "You, the person doing the combo" not "You, Kiba". =/