Airk

>Confused< Extend frame data says 22B has the same recovery (26 frames) and untechable time (45 frames) as 22C, but does 50 less damage. It does come out slightly faster, but that's the only difference I'm seeing. This is definitely something you need to adjust for, yes.

Well, maybe they'll take the hint for next game.

214D shouldn't work against the pumpkin at all, but maybe there's something weird going on. Technically it will beat Lobelias, but it's not really viable as a means of getting around them unless you Yomi an A Lobelia - otherwise, A Lobelia will probably just hit you if you try to do any 214X on reaction, and assuming Rachel is spacing vaguely properly, she won't be using B/C Lobelia when you are close enough to hit her with 214D. Honestly, overall, I don't think 214D is very good in this matchup, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

Does the "old" "combo 1" no longer work? (5BB>2BB>5CC>236A>214A>22A)? Or is it just somehow inferior to the one listed? Similarly, is there a reason to go for 214A > 22B vs either 236A > 214A > 22A or just 22C?

Timing on 2C is probably similar to using 2C on Litchi's j.C, which has similar "hitbox extends below the hurtbox" properties.

Yeah, all that projectile invulnerable stuff MikelAL93 mentioned is CS1 talk; None of that applies anymore. Lambda is sortof a guessing game, but really, it's not THAT bad; Or rather, getting in isn't that bad. It's keeping momentum and not letting her turn the tables that's rough. When approaching Lambda, you need to WATCH her. If you can react to her stuff, it gets a lot easier. It's OKAY if you have to stop and block a 5D or a 6D (while airborne) - it doesn't really get her anything, other than keeping you out, so don't get too risky and get CH. Play patient, mix up your approaches, and wait for them to guess wrong about your approach vector. It's actually a sortof DEFENSIVE game for Tsubaki, because while you do need to approach, it's more important to keep her from hitting you and setting you up with Sickle Storm Oki > Mixup > Hurting than it is for you to get in in a hurry. Patience is key.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do about CS:EX Tsubaki, because, frankly, I'm in no hurry to buy the game at all because I don't like to encourage companies to think it's okay to sell us a $40 new character. I won't deny that the state of Tsubaki in EX is a negative motivator as well, but my stance was pretty well locked in even before that. I may give the game a pass wholesale and just wait for Persona 4. :P It's not like they're not going to change everything again in 8 months.

I agree that having it do more than letting you spam D moves (that already have repeat proration on them anyway) is a step in the right direction towards making "mugen" useful; It's just a shame that it had to come at the cost of nerfing her D moves so that they can go "LOL, now they're better while in Mugen!" I just want my solid CS2 Tsubaki back, thank you.

So I was just looking at this stuff again, and I'm puzzled. Here's 22C in Extend: 19 Frames of Startup 4 Active 26 Recovery (4 more than CS2 - the other two values are unchanged) -5 Frame Advantage But the mook Data ALSO says "29 frames of Guardstun"; Okay. So, math, if we hit on the first active frame: 3 more "active" frames need to pass 26 frames of recovery need to pass. That's 29. With 29 frames of blockstun, this move should be EVEN on block. Not -5. What the heck is going on here? If the 29 frames were completely wrong, we'd be looking at like -13 on block, since it's only a level 3 move, and that gives 16 frames of blockstun. This quite literally doesn't add up. It doesn't seem to work in CS2 either - there, we have 4 active frames, and 22 recovery frames, for 25 frames total recovery... which would've made it +4. @_@ What's even WORSE is the fact that somehow, adding 4 frames of recovery made it 6 frames WORSE? Ah! Wait, I think I just found part of the culprit. In CS2, Tsubaki gets 3 more frames of hit STOP than her opponent (why? I have NO IDEA) so that's what shifts things from +4 to +1; But that data is completely absent from the EX mook translation (and, as best as I can tell from squinting hard, the mook scan itself.). GDI, ASW.

Her "max" damage seems to have gone down a little, but her min damage has gone up a lot, from the look of things - she gets 2k off pretty much anything midscreen, whereas a lot of her stuff in CS2 she basically got nothing - she can combo off Bat and Kitty hammer now, among other things.

Why is that?

It's possible, but you'd need to test it. I don't see any signs of a change in her DP recovery, Kiba - it's 10startup, 9 active, 37 recovery, -27 frame advantage in both CS2 and EX - THAT said, it's still an easy punish, as it pushes you back just right for a super easy 3C now, whereas before you needed to do a dash something, or a fairly quick 6C, there's a bit more leeway for 3C. You can beat Ame no Habaya pretty much for free on reaction with 214D or 214B if she does it at the right range (Outside her 5C range, but inside the range for 214B/D); Similarly, if for some bizarre reason, she decides to hold SoD, you can usually beat it by doing 214D on reaction, because by the time they realize you're moving, it's too late for them to release and hit you before the invulnerability kicks in. Doesn't seem like this matchup has actually changed all that much, except that 236C/D kinda suck now, so it's a lot harder to pressure on that vector.

Which would be fine if: A) Certain Other Characters can do 7k for 50% heat with none of this "I need to somehow get 5 stocks and then not use them until I can land a good hit for Mugen" B) It didn't require 5 stocks. x.x I thought of a way for Mugen to be good. Make it require one stock, but make it always give 5 stocks worth of time (Which is still shorter than stupid Blood Kain). If you end with a super you still get the super for the number of stocks you had when it started, but you get the full duration, and it still leaves you with zero stocks at the end, but you can at least do a real combo with it without having to get and potentially waste 5 charges. It's still fundamentally idiotic to base so much of our damage off of this one "hey, burst me, you know you want to" move, but at least the above change would make it so it's about as useful as Blood Kain. Also, doesn't bonus proration only apply once? So spamming the "3D" loop is really just getting you the repeat proration on 623D? Anyone try using a 623C for your second DP (still going into 236D > 214D afterward)? And I don't care what anyone says about CS2 236C, there was NOTHING broken about that move. It gave Tsubaki a strength that no one else on the cast had, and it was by no means abuseable against anyone who knew what they were doing. The hilariously excessive nerf to it, to me, just shows that ASW wasn't paying a damn bit of attention to how things actually worked. Seriously. The more I look at her frame data, the more convinced I am that they literally didn't finish tuning her - they didn't adjust the properties of ANY of her followup moves except 3CC, and they basically DROPPED _ALL_ custom guardstun values from her moves except for the 22X series, where they didn't change the pre-existing values. Which is why all her stuff is suddenly super negative. And now that I look at it, something is weird with 22X... <goes to dig deeper>

Suuuuure. Because we're not going to get word of another version of before people get done with these videos...

The latter of these is much more accurate than the former; You can actually do some pretty solid stuff and be entirely acceptable at low-mid level play in Stylish/Beginner, if you spend the time to figure out how to connect the various combo parts that it auto-executes for you. Don't conflate "casual" with "complete beginner".

Mostly that; There aren't, to my knowledge, any Tsubaki specific tricks to dealing with the pumpkin.

Just curious, but what would you consider an "easier fighter" and why?

Pretty much what Stargazer said, but to clarify: Makoto's 3C is a deceptive move. It LOOKS like it low-profiles stuff, which technically it sometimes still can do, but for the most part, the ACTUAL reason so much stuff whiffs on it is because it has head/body immunity, rather like Tsubaki's 214D series, so even move that hit along the ground won't land during those frames - this is why it can beat things like Tsubaki's various ground-based special moves. However, as Stargazer points out, 3C has 37 frames of startup, and only frames 6-27 are actually H/B invulnerable, so as long as you attack her near the end of the animation, you get a free combo, especially because those frames are ALSO where her hitbox rises and stops being so low to the ground. So 3C works well as a reactionary counter by Makoto to, say, Tsubaki trying to 236X across at her in neutral, but it's a really poor choice for Makoto to just throw out there, because you have tons of time to jab her out with 2A/2B, and even failing that, a latish 5B/5C/whatever will still hit her.

Because that worked out so well for CS2.

Honestly; there's no answer to your question besides "Practice and learn how to do QCF motions correctly." Plenty of folks can do them on pad just fine (heck, I don't even play on pad and I can generally manage them) - just like SF, TvC, GG, etc, you're going to need to be able to do the basic 'fighting game motions' - QC, DP, HC, and probably double QC. There are no "charge characters" in BB, so you can't take the "Guile route." That said, if you're not enjoying putting in the time to do this, and not really expecting/wanting to be a tournament competitive player, Stylish mode is fine - it doesn't give you access to all your character's tools, but if this is going to be a game that you pick up once a week or something to fool around with, that's not really a big deal. Don't think that playing in this mode lets you get out of learning a character either - it's still absolutely critical to understand what buttons and directions correspond to what actions, and how you can link them together. The biggest issue with stylish mode is that what you learn there doesn't carry very well into Technical, because, while what your character does is going to be largely the same, what you, the player, need to do to make it happen is completely different. So I would encourage you, for the moment, to mess around in both; Put in your practice time in technical and try to avoid getting too frustrated, but don't be afraid to flip the switch to stylish when you want to take it easy. At the end of the day, only you can decide how much time you want to put into this game, and what your expectations are, and then choose which mode will get you there.

If Ragna is giving you problems by jumping in with j.C, you might consider anti-airing with 623B; The invulnerability frames on it start JUST after it becomes active, so as long as you do it early enough that you get off the ground before getting into range of his j.C, then you should win. If he's doing j.C very deep, 2C should be able to beat him.

See, I was GOING to say this, but coming from me it would've sounded bitter. I think you're probably thinking of 6A? The low kick? That's actually +1, so for heck's sake, don't do anything there unless it's like a DP. Nails are only plus under some circumstances, so you kinda have to learn; If he does it point blank, or if the bottom nail bounces, he's got a better situation than if he does it at any non-kissing-distance range. And most Bang's will expect to be able to pressure after, so it might be a good time to DP in the face. Just be sure to move around alot. If he uses nails from a distance and they catch you, it'll be in his favour.

The suggestions I see presenting themselves are: You might want to do more actual mixup; Your pressure seems pretty decent, but you're just throwing out a bunch of mid attacks, and hoping your opponent gets frustrated and pushes a button. (The only overhead I saw was actually AFTER you had landed a hit, and the only lows are your long range 3Cs) You rely pretty heavily on IAD to get in. Not that it's not working, but you might want to be aware of the habit. You are definitely autopiloting 3C > 6C even when the 3C doesn't land as a CH. Probably want to work on that confirm, otherwise, 3C > 3CC > rapid if you've got it is better. Try harder to apply pressure after blocking Lambda's 236C - it's -6, so while you won't really get a punish, you should at least be able to take the offensive, rather than get reset to neutral. Dash 5A/2A/5B are probably your best bets, though 22A will catch her jumping out if she tries that, but probably won't catch backdashes.

There is no "standing" state; Standing state is just the "doing nothing" state. You can't "cancel" doing nothing, or everything you do would be a cancel. Again though, there is no standard - Hotaru keeps Hakumen in the air for 13 frames, Tsubaki keeps him in the air for 18 frames, D nails for like, 18 or something (D nails is weird and confusing.). So how long the character is airborne is dependant on how long the move keeps them there.

Even in CS2, basically everything Ragna does is better than our equivalent options. In EX it's even worse. "Just block" isn't an option for most folks, in spite of what people say about Ragna having "bad mixup" he has a ton of options, most of which pay off more for him than they do for the defender. You need to control the pace of the match, which unfortunately means A) Not having a lot of time to charge, and B) Having to read his Inferno Divider usage like a children's book, because one wrong guess means you are either now blocking his normals, or you're being comboed and flung towards the corner. 2C is a strong option (though it's probably less so in EX based on what I've heard about improvements to Ragna's j.C hitbox), but sooner or later the Ragna player is going to realize that there's basically no reason to jump at you, because he's totally capable of beating you on the ground. In CS2 it was sortof okay to throw out the occasional semi-random 214A/B/D attacks at the appropriate ranges and try to tag him out of a 5B/5C, but the payout for this has gone down, and the risk has gone way up since he can now punish any blocked 214X with 5A > Combo. Basically, this matchup is complete garbage. I'd give it like 6.5 Ragna, 6, anyway.