Airk

I believe it is B - once your jump startup is over, you can immediately start your move. This isn't really "cancelling" anything though - you go through your WHOLE jump startup, and execute the TK move on your first airborne frame. How long it takes to land afterwards depends on the move you use - there's no standard here. A TK Gauntlet Hades takes longer to land than a TK Tsubaki because the move takes longer to complete. And obviously moves that move you upwards will take longer to land after than moves that don't. It's B again. But you're not cancelling anything either. Your tech ends, and then, since presumably you buffered the move, you execute it on the first frame that you are allowed to execute it on - i.e. the first frame after your tech completes. You can cancel both, but usually only after a move has made contact (though there are exceptions.).

Uh, it's actually worse than that now; 5C -> 5D was even on block in CS2, but now that 5C is only a level 3 attack, 5C -> 5D is -2 on block. I would not recommend doing this predictably at all.

This is an AWESOME idea.

I think my level of displeasure is being greatly exagerated by this thread. :P

This is probably true, but it's weird to defend your point when challenged on a joke. If it's a joke, and someone says the equivalent of "Hey, that's not true." then just drop it? I am way too dependant on shield rush, and really need to work on being willing to dash/brake to gain ground. I'm also a bit bad at eyeballing just how far I can go with the rush, since it reaches almost-but-not-quite fullscreen. Mashing is a bad habit that develops out of not being able to block overheads, and facing a lot of people who have super-gap-a-licious pressure. Working on breaking this habit. x.x I know this sounds like an excuse, but I freely admit my execution is kinda bad, but it was like ten times worse on Saturday because I had to adjust from an (apparently) super laggy LCD screen to playing on a CRT, so I was doing everything too fast in an effort to compensate for lag that wasn't there. @_@ I was starting to not drop EVERYTHING by the end of the evening.

Let me put it a different way - I see a lot of matches where Random Character X lands some random hit at max range, and I find myself thinking "That's not going to turn into anything" and then they get 2.5k off it. Whereas I never see that with Tsubaki. Instead I see a lot of stuff dropping because the opponent isn't in just the right spot. Maybe it's just my perception, or Tsubaki players just suck at adapting to different positions, or maybe there's something to it. :P

Not very at all, actually, and most of the "Salt" had more to do with people talking than with the actual games. :P And sorry Troll; Wasn't really talking to you at all, though it might've sounded that way, I was in fact attempting to avoid naming names. You made it pretty clear how you stood and it's really hard to argue with the spirit of the person who put this together in the first place. Sorry I missed the goodnews announcement - I'd wanted to stay for it, but I'm old and married. :P I also tend to be a bit on the serious side - you may have not noticed, but I didn't joke about games being good, bad, or otherwise. That's just not how I roll. So I did leave feeling a little bit down on things, but that's not WHY I left (see aforementioned old and married, with things to do the next morning.) No KoF for me at this time. The series has never worked for me. My next planned FG purchase is Persona 4.

A little bit; Only the 2nd time really amounted to much. If anything, I'd say it was some ingenious crossovers on the part of the Noel player, and the fact that Noel can confirm into damage off just about anything at most ranges, whereas Tsubaki needs to be close enough to kiss the opponent before we can land a real combo.

Good to meet everyone; Thanks for coming out. Double thanks to whoever brought the PS3 with Mu unlocked so she could destroy us all. Negative shout outs to people who kept complaining about how stupid the game was. Seriously. I don't care if you like it or not, or if you want to sing the praises of Guilty Gear (which could've done with a little more praise and a little less being locked in the corner) but try to keep the belittling in public to a minimum. Someone might actually be interested in trying it if they're not constantly being told how dumb it is. Thank you.

Well, word on the street is 2-4 inches here tomorrow. I'll be there tomorrow, probably between 3 and 4 depending on how long it takes. Never gone that far out on the orange line. I'll bring my dualmodded stick and a 360 copy of CS.

This; Though note that 5C > 6B is now a 5 frame gap and can therefore trade with people mashing certain jabs.

Well, how many of our moves actually generate a fireball? :P 1.

This; 236A could set you up in a very good position if you spaced it right - Somewhere around the edge of 5B range. 236B was harder, but I still managed to get some mileage out of it from time to time. Now these moves basically go to the proverbial "back of the spellbook" to never be used again outside of a combo. Stupid.

Also midscreen 22D wallbounce, but it is as you say - the pros hugely outweighed the cons going from CS1 to CS2; Holy cow, I fooled around with a few matches in CS1, and it was hilariously terrible. I kept going "Wait, that didn't work either?"

Fundamentally, I think if every matchup has gotten harder, it's pretty safe to say that she has gotten worse, overall.

I am intrigued, even though I won't ever be able to watch the whole episode at one go.

Still no word on this getting off the HD and onto the 'net? =/

I concede the point, as I was forgetting that the difference between Level 2 and Level 3 is different than the difference between level 3 and level 4.

I contest your notion that a slower move gatlinged from a level 3 attack is as safe as a faster move gatlinged from a level 2 attack. This might be true if Tsubaki's overhead had more range and therefore required something slower than a 2A to counter, but as it is, the size of the gap between the "lead in" attack and the overhead is the same, but the opponent has two more frames of time in which to start mashing 2A, or simply to shift their guard to high - the fact that they are in guardstun for these two frames is largely irrelevant, because they don't need to start their action in them, they just need to be ready to start their action at that point.

Yeah; Calling it "fast" is pretty inexplicable to me. I actually totally missed that. It really does seem thoroughly middle of the pack - the only faster DPs I could find were Ragna, but the only slower ones I could find were Jin. Pretty much everyone else comes in at the 9-11 frame mark as you say. It's a measure of how likely it is to trade, that's all. You don't always HIT with your first active frame, so if that's the only invulnerable one, then you're going to trade more than someone who's DP is invulnerable until halfway through it's active frames. Er, not sure where you're getting 5 frames from? Looking at the data I see 7/7/-/9 for A/B/C/D - and I have no clue what the "-" means on the C version. But either way, as best as I can tell from the screenshots and from watching the game, no part of Tsubaki is ever a hitbox during it (unless she's overlapping with the "projectile"). So yeah, it definitely won't hit at the top of it's trajectory until the later frames. Generally, active frames are spread more or less evenly throughout the duration of the animation. This is part of what makes the B DP kinda interesting, in that it's actually almost got better chances of winning or at least trading, under a lot of cirumstances than the A or D DP. Partly because it's invulnerable from the 2nd active frame ON, and partly because unlike the A version, the projectile is guaranteed unless you get hit really early. So it's not a good "take advantage of that really small gap" DP - that's what A and D are for - but it's a good tool for use countering stuff that leaves a larger window. Well, yes, it is tons worse if they're airborne - if they're airborne, you're pretty much guaranteed to not be invulnerable by the time you reach them UNLESS you are using the B DP, which is invulnerable from just after leaving the ground, pretty much until Tsubaki starts to descend again. The A and D DPs are pretty much useless at that distance, because their invulnerability frames wear off just as you start to leave the ground. Also...WTF? They BUFFED Ragna's 5B? It wasn't godlike enough before? Anyway, I'm sorry if you're tired of trying to "convince" me here - clearly good people can get wins with this character, but I find the odds of me being one of those people to be depressingly low. All the strengths that I lean on in CS2 are pretty much toast, and I KNOW I have a terrible neutral/footsies game, so going from a character that can at least sortof lazy her way out at midlevels of play to a character who really DEMANDS good footsies if you intend to win against pretty much anyone is not going to end well for me. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to STOP playing her, or throw their hands up and say "Okay, you win, she sucks" but I'm very concerned about the problems that are going to screw me over if/when I get this game.

Attempted Answer: @Kiba: She does acquire a "real" DP from a reversal standpoint, in that she no longer has to worry about the DP trading, assuming it hits on the first active frame. While that is something of a large assumption, it does produce a marked improvement over the A DP. That said, it is still the weakest move of its type in the game, since even the Corona Upper (Makoto) has -two- invulnerable active frames. I am also very curious about the neutral use of j.236D.

Huh. And did you test this with doing some sort of attack, or just empty jumps? My theory at this point is that you are required to be on the ground (and can BLOCK - you're not in "recovery" per se) for 1 frame between jumps, and that one frame is long enough for Tager to grab you and take you for a ride. And then moves with "landing recovery" actually put you on the ground unable to act at all for X frames. What happens if you land and immediately DP? Can you do a frame 1 invulnerable move to avoid 'landing in' a 720? (I would check this myself, but I'm at work.)

So this is what Xie has to say about Tsubaki in his Tier Thread: I'm curious to see if people agree with this. I think the reward assessment isn't bad, but the neutral viability continues to concern me - considering how bad ALL of our D moves are now in terms of recovery. 214D is a free punish for anyone unless you can end outside of jab range, 236D basically resets the game to neutral on block because you have to either block or backdash - it's too negative to even safely jump after being blocked. Similarly, 22D is only "safe" if you're far enough away that people can't jab you after blocking it. Thoughts?

Then there must be some sort of "landing" time or something where you can't re-jump, because otherwise, you land, holding up, and immediately go back into jump startup and become unthrowable. Sorry; This doesn't really have anything to do with the matchup, it's just me continuing my quest to figure out how All The Things work in this game.

Question: Are you going to finish populating your writeups on the cast? I find them interesting and insightful