Airk

Bah; I don't think there's that much variance in difficulty between combos for different people. One person might have an easier time IN GENERAL learning combos than someone else, but I don't really think there's such a thing as a person who has, say, a natural gift for instant air dashes that would lower the difficulty of that sort of combo relative to anything else. I'm in favor of at least some sort of guidelines for combo difficulty. It gives those of us who are incompetent a good guess about how to work things through, and people who don't need it don't need to use it. It's like the Pirate Code. :P

A "number of all-seeing hats" rating system for difficulty would be epic.

Well, I thought I was gonna go be all clever and look in the Litchi forums for all their cool video-thread-strats, but they don't even have a thread, so nuts to them. :P Since the standard format for this appears to contain a section called "Changes from CS1 to CS2" and I've already done a frame data deep dive, I'm putting together a short summary of that stuff. Here it is. - Most normals received a proration improvement, and/or untech time increase, leading to better combos off random hits. - Most normals now safer on block - 6B is significantly improved, giving frame advantage and good pressure. - 3C is no longer cancellable except with Rapid Cancel, no longer a relatively safe, staple move. - Charging is much faster and safer. 2D is completely safe, 5D picks up a stock of charge in very little time. - 236A/B/C are now significantly safer and can be plus on block if spaced correctly. - 236C can be used as a combo starter. - 214X moves have gained some head/body invulnerability. - 22C is now plus on block. - 236236C now has significant, frame one, startup invincibility, making it a strong reversal. I think that hits the highlights without getting into all the fiddly details.

I dunno. The more I think about this, the more I feel that what we should do is just bulk up our guide with as much info as possible, and then Spirit Juice and co make the decisions about what to include. We could give "priorities" by, say, ordering our "tactics" or "tips and tricks" from "most useful" to "more situational" but for specials and normals, I think we want to overload with info rather than underload. SJ and whoever else does the video can then do the picking and choosing to make sure that all the videos contain roughly the same quality and depth of info for each character. Maybe I'll go read some of the other character threads.

I wish he'd provide us with a format to work in, but...whatever. I guess we just need to polish things a little more. How much info do we want to provide here? Does the guide have enough info on normals? Specials? I'd like to expand the "strategy" section a bit...

No. Read post #1.

I think if this is going to be for getting beginners up to speed, it's worth spending the the ~1 minute to go over something like: <some video of 5A>: 5a is a basic jab, good for close up pressure <Some video of 2A>: 2A is a crouching jab, generally preferable to 5A <some video of 6A>: 6A is Tsubaki's overhead, and is used for mixup off of 5B or 2B. <some video of 5B>: 5B is Tsubaki's best poke, spacing tool, and go-to general purpose attack etc. You COULD choose to just hit the "highlights" but I figure each section only needs to be about 5 seconds long, so it's worth showing people what moves look like and give a few basic tips for usage. BattousaiJ - I'd like if you could give one specific "punish" combo. probably no more than 2 charges, but starting with a 'less common' starter. Don't worry about counterhit stuff or anything necessarily, but it's really helpful to have a go-to for "I just blocked a randon Daifunka, and I want to put the hurt on this guy" or similar situations. They don't crop up quite as much in BB as they do in SF4, but a punish combo is still a good thing to have in your repertoire - it could start with a 5C or a naked 22D. For the rest of the combos, I agree with Ginseng that it's best to show combos that can start with a 2A/5B or a 6A. Maybe mix in one 22D corner combo somewhere too.

Oh definitely; The reason you can't combo with normals off of 236A/B is that the hitstun isn't long enough. (236A for example only has 21 frames of hitstun, so even if you hit on the last active frame, you have 18 frames of recovery before you can start your next attack, so even 2A comes out too slowly. 236C though, has 29 frames of hitstun, and the same 18 frames of recovery, so if you space it right (or get a counter hit, or hit someone crouching) you have enough frames for 5B. Of course, comboing from there to 2A/5A requires less precision in the spacing.) But since cancelling into followup specials is a cancel, those recovery frames don't get applied and you have tons (relatively) of time to combo afterwards. (And you can use a D attack to make it into a real combo, I think) Also, I guess we need to remove the line from the guide that says the B versions of her moves can go through projectiles, since none of them actually really do that anymore. Profound...sadness. -_-

It's a comparatively small change though, so I didn't feel a need to note it. wacky. So...sad. ;_; Yeah; I tried to summarize this as best I could; They all have invulnerability for part of the startup. Only 214D has invulnerability all the way to the hit, and depending on which move it is, there is more or less startup and invuln time. x.x Was I right that the different versions travel different distances? Also, is there a problem with hitting with 6BB after 6B ever?

That seems very accurate to my observations - especially the air-to-air one. Tsubaki definitely seems to have issues with characters that jump around like crazy to avoid having to play with her on the ground - she doesn't really have any tools to chase them up there. She can also mix in throws for her ground game - since she's up close for most of her attacks anyway, and has a decent kara throw, this is a pretty real threat, though if the opponent breaks the throw she loses pressure. Although maybe it'd be safe to do a 236A from that range. Probably.

We could create a sample text (Like 2 minutes of BlazBlue speak) and have interested parties upload auditions for voting. :P

I agree that text is probably the easiest solution, but I disagree with your logic; It doesn't take ANY knowledge on their part except knowing how to do good voiceover. The problem is that it requires a lot of TIME from that person, so unless someone with some voiceover/narration/public speaking skills wants to step up and put in the effort to cover ALL the videos, I think it's best to stick with text. =/ Which is really a shame.

Guide update, section 1. Some of this stuff is marked "May want to" - those are things that I think would be nice to have, but if you're worried about being too wordy, you can omit. General: I'd replace any references to "Air unblockable" with "require barrier to be blocked in the air". It's confusing otherwise, IMHO. a) Normals: 2A - may want to add that it's plus on block 6A - add that it grounds airborn opponents 2B - may want to add that you can gatling to a low or a high from here 6B - worth mentioning that it's plus on block 6BB - Does this REALLY miss when 6B hits? I always thought the problem with 6BB was that trying to gatling from it to 5CC never worked. Also, change to note that it's a low hit now 5C - Might be worth mentioning that it's a strong combo starter now if you can land it 6C - mention that this is jump cancellable 3CC - is not special cancellable. In order to follow this up, you must Rapid Cancel. B) Drives: 5D - doesn't really have the "slowest" recovery anymore. Also, might want to note that it stops charging automatically after filling 1.5 stocks 2D - doesn't really "charge the slowest" anymore, because it speeds up a LOT after 1 second. Also, has NO recovery now, not "fastest" recovery. j.D - might want to note that if you charge all the way to the ground, you get more recovery than with any other drive In terms of recovery should really be 2D > 5D > j.D In terms of charging speed it's hard to say because of how 2D and 5D work now. C) Specials: "Generally" heavier button specials do more damage, i.e. D > C > B >A Should probably just remove the about C versions "may guard break" - that's pretty much covered by the next line Adjust "all non-D specials can be cancelled to D specials" to "Most non-D specials can be..." since 22X and j.214X can't be D cancelled. 236A/B/C/D - should note that these are safe on block if spaced properly (i.e. hitting towards the end of the animation) and the C version, at least, can be comboed from on hit. (Can someone confirm that you can't combo from A or B?) 214A/B/C/D - Should note that travel distance is affected by button too (I think?). Remove the bit about "D-version also has invincibility frames". Add "All versions have Head/Body invulnerability for part of the startup (not immediately), D version has it until hit." 22A/B/C/D - Should note that D version can be comboed off in the corner OR by using another charge for 236D (Does it even need to be D?) May also wish to note that C version is plus on block, DEFINITELY note that B version has projectile invulnerability 623A/B/C/D - The bit about "only the D version has invulnerability" has never been right. x.x A version has frame 1 invulnerability, D version has invulnerability until it hits, B version has invulnerability once it gets off the ground. May want to note that the D version is not a projectile. D) Distortions and Astrals: 236236C needs to be seperated from 236236D. 236236 C now has invulnerability until after the first hitting frame making it VERY reliable as a reversal super. 236236D should probably read "Advancing version of 236236C, uses all charges. No invulnerability, but airborne shortly after startup. Damage depends on the number of charges used - mostly only used at the end of 214214D combos." 631246C - May want to add that it's got tons of invulnerability. Also change the combo example from "After 22D" to "After 22A/B/C/D" (Mwahaha) F) Air unblockables - you list 5BB twice and don't list 5CC at all. Instead of doing this list, you should probably just say "All of Tsubaki's ground normals except 5A and 2A require barrier to be blocked in the air" (Yes, all of them)

Blockstrings would definitely be a good category to put in the guide. And right. Error corrections, incoming sometime soon.

Her gatlings actually aren't all the same. 6B chains FROM 5CC rather than other way around, and a couple of other things. How much revising do you want me to do? I can stick to just finding errors and saying "You really need to fix the bit in move X where it says Y" or I can give the thing a thorough onceover and half-re-write it. :P

I must've missed the general discussion request, because usually I am a busybody and will do easy stuff like editing. :P I actually need some help with the guide though - in the section on normals, what do we want to include in terms of gatlings? Here are the options I see: #1: Everything. This seems like overkill, since you can get it from the frame data easily if you want #2: Everything that combos. #3: Everything that combos on a normal hit #4: Just stuff that you'd actually want to use (And maybe some examples of why) Thoughts? I actually..er.. can't...really do anything other than #1 without assistance, because I'm not actually sure which of her more...er...esoteric gatlings actually combo (And sorry, I'm too lazy to do the frame data math and find out.).

We need to go back through the guide with a serious eye to detail, actually, because the more I go over it, the more wrong it is. No offense to Ginseng, and I appreciate all the effort that has gone into it, but it's VERY MUCH still in a sort of "CS 1.5" state, with a bunch of stuff updated for CS2 and a bunch of stuff not (3C and 3CC still say jump cancellable, the specials section still says "A, B, C versions all do the same damage." which is no longer true, etc.) This is the sort of fiddly nitpicky garbage I'm good at though, so if Ginseng doesn't want it, I guess I can do it.

I don't mean to keep coming in as the dissenting vote here, but I want to make a correction on emphasis - I don't think it's particularly important to note which moves are "newly" plus on block. Simply noting the moves which ARE plus on block is more complete and less confusing. The guide is a good place to start, but I don't really feel like it goes into quite as much depth as it should about normals, and to a lesser extent specials. Since this is going to be used in a video, stuff like "2A: standard crouching jab" has no value, because all it describes is what the move looks like, which will be immediately obvious in a video. Far more important would be something like: "2A: Gives frame advantage and chains into itself. It has a good starting proration, so you won't be crippling your combos if you start with this. A good pressure tool that offers no escape even on instant block." Also, there's some stuff in the guide that's still wrong - like 6BB being a mid hit. (It's low now). If we're using that for a basis, we need to go over it carefully, because right now, I think it's still not really up to date for CS2.

Thanks pktazn. I was actually muttering about this project in general discussion a while ago too, because I bumped into the thread on the Jin forums which seemed pretty well organized and useful. We might want to refer to that for the sorts of info we want to include. With regard to all the frame data stuff, I feel like the whole list is probably seriously overkill - particularly since this is supposed to be a video. Overall, I think we want to approach this as "Here is what you need to know about CS2 Tsubaki" rather than "Here's some stuff that changed if you knew about CS1 Tsubaki" though if we wanted to include a short section somewhere (I guess near the end?) that details a few key changes, that might be okay, but most of the changes are going to be pretty obvious to people who know CS1 Tsubaki. Edit: Whoops. Bunch of info that spirit juice already covered in his thread. Don't mind me. I leave the actual content of all that up to people who know better than me, though I could do a brief writeup on uses for normals/specials to people's thoughts flowing if it will help.

That's odd. o.o I was watching for that, and I clearly saw the "Counter" pop up on the Valkenhayn combo but then later in the video, there's a combo on Ragna where you start with that and you DON'T see to get a "Counter" popup. Confuuuuuused.

Very nice. And informative - I didn't know j.236D staggered on ground hit. Nothing about that in the frame data. o.o

Stop doing that one combo. Lose a lot until you start doing better with your other ones. Seriously. Basically, don't get discouraged by what happens when you pry yourself away from it.

The announcer in these new vids is hilarious.

Treat him like a zoning character. Don't charge except maybe on a knockdown. Get up in his grill and stay there. He has landing lag after his cloud in the air, so if he thinks he's "safe" throwing it out from across the screen, prove him wrong with 236X. Keep momentum. Don't let him try any blockstring shenanigans, because they'll get him curse. DP fearlessly. Counterassault ASAP if you find yourself blocking. Arakune is defensively terrible, and he's going to try to run away a lot. Don't let him. DO, however, be wary of reversal Space Laser if he's starting to feel the pressure too much. If he wants to move in and try to play with his spikes (j.B) or The Bird, you can stuff him with carefully timed 2C, or less carefully timed 623B - 623B has its invulnerability frames late in the animation (Basically once you get off the ground) and will blow right through his spikes. Of course, this is all from my experience with some dubious Arakunes - most of them know 1-2 ways to get curse (Usually "cloud and bug" and a blockstring/combo with 5Ds), and a big damage curse combo, and not much else. If you fight one who's actually good, I'm unprepared to give advice.

I've met one, on XBL, I think. I forget the name, but regrettably I've run across him a couple of times. Quit on me both times. I don't mind if people quit before the match starts. Maybe they see my awesome Tsubaki PSR (Haha) and just don't want to lose, or whatever, I don't mind. Certainly there've been a few times when I get matched against a 250 PSR Hazama or something for the 4th time in a row and I find myself thinking "I don't -really- want to play this match again". I gather they're adding some sort of 'legit' quit option to the Ranked Match screen with the 1.03 patch.