Kiba

There seems to be a real issue of people not reading stuff here. Most of the information you guys ask for is right here in front of you. I don't think I've done anything wrong and I love helping you guys and all, but when the answer is right in front of your face and I'm getting repetivie questions on combos for instance I start to wonder what it is you guys exactly want. I'm normally quite patient and lax but I might have to start deleting posts and giving out infractions if it's necessary. ;/ Please do not misinterpret what I said. I'm not saying you'll get bodied if you ask questions, but please make use of this forum before you do. I've tried to make this place very accessible and easy to read. If something is difficult to understand then let me know. Also @ Yannick, as TD stated there doesn't need to be a thread on Garudyne as the 2nd post in the first page of the combo thread suffices. If anymore information needs to go there I'll add it there, and/or in the wiki. @TGR: Nice stuff.

Not to mention every little helps. Imagine that one time where you get hit by something and then you say to yourself, if only you had just a little more health, you could have survived.

Against Akihiko: Nice, you were good. The Akihiko only went for AOA mixup during kill rush stuff which I figured was easy for you to get out of. Against Naoto: At 3:13 you could've followed up from SB.Zio with either 5C or 5B. Everything else was fine. Against Kanji: Tis all good. Against Naoto (2): I don't think 2A > 5C links on normal hit, but I believe it does on FC, so instead you should use 2A > 5B > 5C. I may be wrong on this. Against Akihiko (2): All good. Against Labrys: Remember against Labrys you only need to hold 2 during D.Garu. Against Chie: You relied on the F-Action a little more than usual in this match compared to the others and it seemed to really work against you rather than for you. Against Aigis: You need to be a little more careful about the way you use Thanatos in this matchup because it's very easy for Aigis to persona break you since she has quite some control with bullets. That includes using 2C at the beginning of the match or using JC. Against Yu: It's fine. Against Yosuke: That match was way too random but that wasn't your fault. ;/ The Yosuke only seemed to know auto combo so I was surprised they knew how to the IK unless that was mapped to an easier route. Against Teddie: You can't use thanatos the same way you do against the other characters here because Teddie has a lot of ways to hit it. The Bat being the most evident, so I think you be a lot more cautious. I think you should use Zio more when you're far. Overall: Your Thanatos pressure seems to be the same - 5C(2), and then a slight delay into something. You should mix it up a little more like 5C(1) > 5D, or 5C(2) > 2C (input 2C just before the second 5C hit comes out). If you keep that same stuff up you're bound to get persona broke pretty quickly once people get used to ya. Remember you have a free action after SB.Garu (air dash, JA, JB etc) Just out of curiousity why do you use JC air to air from a distance when you have JB and JD? I just think JB and JC are better options. I think you should use JB more to make it more awkward for your opponent to get in.

Regarding the 5C(2) > C.Agi corner oki: It requires conditioning. If the opponent techs immediately after the 5C(2) they could easily hit Thanatos out of it and the flames will not appear. If they slightly delay their tech they will get hit by the flames even if they hit Thanatos. This is why you use the 5C(2) > JD tech trap so you condition them into teching late or not at all. There's another problem. If they get hit by the flames and they do not hit Thanatos, if you followup with 5B, Thanatos will come out quite late and 2C will whiff on the opponent, which basically means you need to end with A.Zio or JC. For this reason I recommend using 5A > 5B > 5C, to give Thanatos the time he needs to be able to come out again. If they block the flames you're free to do whatever you want but you have to b creative with your mixup.

Again thanks for the info it's fantastic. No worries dude, it's all good. As long as it helps I'm happy.

Good to hear Elochai. Glad you feel that way. Thanks for those vids xlol. I'll get them down in the combo thread.

That stuff is cool, but I got that in the data thread in the guide because that stuff seems to be geared into how to be using Liz rather than tricks and gimmicks. I'd figured it'll be more useful there too since I would hope that beginners look to the data thread first when learning about Liz lol. I've corrected your name and got the 2C info down.

A new one has been made, and although it is still in its developing stages it should be completely fine by tomorrow. Locking this thread.

2.Gimmicks Thanatos 5C Pressure: Rock, Paper, Scissors! Notes: The easiest way of testing your opponent's knowledge of the match-up. After the 2nd blocked hit of 5C, either cancel into 2C or 5D. The guard point from 2C beats mashing while 5D is a throw that beats blocking. Both options beat roll, but lose to holding up back (except in the corner where 2C hits a vulnerable jump frame when timed correctly). Liz can also cancel 5C into 2D - it loses to mashing just like 5D, but recovers faster so she can get a chance to punish. This form of pressure is fairly weak midscreen, but spacing Liz at 5B's sweetspot distance against a cornered opponent makes it very difficult for them to punish 2C without risking a counterhit. After 5C has completely recovered, she can also do 214A (beats opponents who hold up back on autopilot) or jC (keeps Thanatos in place for you to use 5C again). Note that 5C is minus on block however, therefore this will lose to mashing. Typically it's bad for Liz players to go for midscreen pressure with Thanatos too much because you can very quickly find yourself persona broken. 2C Hit Confirm Option Select Notes: Liz has a useful input option select to help her hit confirm 2C. After pretty much every 2C while she has 50 meter, input 2C > 214B > OMC > 5C. If the opponent gets hit by 2C then Liz will immediately cancel into 214B and she can hit confirm from there. If the opponent blocks 2C, then Liz gets OMC > 5C frame trap instead. This helps keep Liz from getting persona broken extremely quickly after blocked 2C's and lets her work in one last guessing game. 2B > OMC > JA Instant Overhead Notes: Self explanatory, it's just a quick attack into an instant overhead, and it can be seen here. Fatal counter hit on a feared opponent makes it much easier to hit confirm, and remember that you can do a low or throw instead once the opponent starts adapting! OMC 5C On Block! Notes: Normally 5C can not be OMC'd on block - however, if you hold input 2ABC just after the first blocked hit of 5C then you will get on OMC! This is extremely useful for Elizabeth because she gains a number of options: 1) 5C > 2OMC> 5C - frame trap that punishes both mashing and holding up back! 2) Keep pressure on the opponent by getting closer with 5C > 2OMC > dash or 5C > 2OMC> Instant Air Turn Dash [iATD] 3) 5C > 2OMC > dash > 5B > 5D - This gimmick leaves Thanatos right on top of the opponent and makes it very difficult to react to 5D. The spacing also makes it safe against many character's R-Actions. JC Combo Ender Notes: This is the standard combo ender on standing opponents which provides you with the ability to air dash to your opponent to maintain momentum and apply pressure if you need to. In addition, you could opt for Thanatos pressure since he will reappear on the ground where jC hit, or you could aim for a Mabufudyne where you feel that players may opt to try and away once they have recovered. In the corner, it also provides you with a quick 2A/Throw mixup. 2C > C Maragidyne Oki(Corner Only) Notes: While comboing an opponent in the corner, end whatever combo with 5C > 2C > C Maragidyne or just 2C > C Maragidyne such that they have to tech on the ground. Thanatos immediately starts Maragidyne after 2C recovers which then comes out a few frames after the opponent wakes up. This setup shuts down a TON of options. If they try to poke or F-Action on wake-up, Thanatos will probably get broken but Maragidyne will still come out for a fatal counter! If they try to roll out, Elizabeth has already recovered and can fatal throw them back into the corner on reaction! The only reliable option is to block, but they're forced to block for 2 seconds which gives time for liz to mix them up or perfect her positioning. It's extremely strong. JD Range Extend Notes: JD's range is normally pretty pitiful. However since Thanatos' summon position is behind Liz you can air turn so that your back is facing the opponent and this will DOUBLE the grab's range. Not only that, but it can also be considered faster since Thanatos' position starts closer to the opponent instead of having to go past Liz. This improves the usefulness of this move. Be very careful about using this while you have a burst - airturn jD uses the exact same inputs and it's very easy to waste a gold burst on accident. To avoid this, input 7AB4 first to get an IAD backwards which can cancel almost immediately into jD to lose very little range. JD Tech Trap Notes: This tech trap is quite interesting. It requires you to drop your combo to catch opponents in an air grab reset, and the following are known examples. The first method is by doing a JB > dj.D. This can be done in this combo for example: 5AAA > A.Bufu > JB > dj.D. If the opponent techs immediately Thanatos will grab them and score a reset. This is an example. The other method is by following up from SB.Zio in the corner. In the corner, after SB.Zio, you use 5C(2) > JD, and again if the opponent techs they will get caught in the reset. The only disadvantage with this reset is that your opponent has the easy option of opting not to tech and thus avoid getting reset, but this will happen more when your opponent is more accustomed to what you can do with Elizabeth. Example. Alternatively, if you have no meter, you can do b.bufu > 5C > j.D reset. For example, 5D > j.B > j.A > j.C > 2A > 5B > 5C (2) > 2C > 214B > delay 5C > j.D reset. After any combo that involves bufu in the corner, you can do j.A > jump cancel air turn > j.D for a reset. Catches every tech but neutral (slightly delay the j.D on upwards tech). It's so wacky that on forward tech, Thanatos gets summoned in front of Liz to grab the opponent. 5AAA D.Garu 5AA JD resets in corner against back, front tech. (They can't mash out of this) the JD timing is to jump cancel the 5AA and JD as soon as you jump. Also you can opt to finish the combo and reset after 5C(2) like normal (beats back, front, up tech).You can even do it after a JD reset, doing JD, 5B, 2AB, D.Garu, 5AA JD for another reset. 5AAA D.Garu 5A 2B dj.D works midscreen against back tech. Magarudyne Cross-Up After Blocked jC Notes: jC exhibits an interesting property on block - the opponent is shunted in the direction that Elizabeth is facing. What does this mean? 1) Midscreen, Elizabeth can airdash behind them and input jC > D Magarudyne (236D). The jC cross-up is slow enough that most players can react to it, but blocking jC pushes the opponent under Liz and to the other side so that Magarudyne crosses up again! This can be hit confirmed meterless into Garu loops on Naoto/Labrys/Shadow Labrys/Elizabeth/Akihiko/Yosuke, but against other characters you need an OMC to follow up. 2) Against a cornered opponent, Elizabeth can input air turn > jC > D Magarudyne. The jC will actually suck the opponent out of the corner and cause Garu to unexpectedly cross up for huge damage! Meaty 2C Notes: 2C has a ton of active frames which makes it a decent meaty. After a midscreen hit confirm with Thanatos, end it with 2C instead (EX: 5C > 2C > 214B > 2C > 5C > 2C) and immediately input another 2C as the opponent is rising. This forces them to block 2C much later in its active frames and allows 5C to frame trap afterwards without requiring any meter! You can also execute the option select 2C hit confirm here without meter. Bufu > Air Unblockable Tech Trap Notes: If the opponent manages to break out of the ice in time they will be in the air. Remember that the A.Bufu has a low recovery state, making it easy for you to catch them with an air unblockable reset. You can opt for a B.Bufu but you have to be pretty quick with this, or you could quickly dash and go for a 2B. An example is doing 5AAA > A.Bufu > Air unblockable reset. Bear in mind that this is not the only time where you can go for a B.Bufu reset. You could also do it after a 5A or 2A in a combo on an airbourne opponent. Again there is the requirement for the opponent to tech in the air in order for this to work. B.Bufu/SB.Zio > 2D Ender Notes: After a B.Bufu, rather than going for the full combo you could end with 2D to inflict poison onto your opponent. You would have to input this fairply quickly though so you maintain Thanatos' position next to your opponent. You could also do this to an opponent in the corner after you've hit them with SB.Zio. The recovery of 2D is fairly fast meaning you can catch an opponent's attempt to mash and hit Thanatos , but Thanatos will lose to reversals which may render this method slightly less effective against those with offensive F-Actions such as Yu and Mitsuru. You can take a look at this by checking videos with Kaqn. Hide Your All-Out-Attack with SB Maziodyne Notes:While you have 75 meter against a cornered opponent, force them to block SB Maziodyne (236AB) and immediately input OMC > 66AB. The active frames on SB Zio completely mask the start-up of Liz's normally horrible All Out Attack - opponents who haven't seen this setup before will get hit 100% of the time. Mahamaon Death Trap Notes: This is an instant kill if you land a hit on oki. Hitconfirm any midscreen combo into xxx > 5C(2) > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > Mahamaon > Sweep. This gives you sweep knockdown with a mahamaon very close to you. This gives you VERY threatening oki: if you land a hit, you instant kill. Depending on the situation: 5D(CH) wallbounce > 5B > sweep > D.Garu > 2A > 5B > 5C(2) > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > JC (combos into Mahamaon) (100 SP total for setup and combo) 5D(non-CH) > 5B > Sweep ?> SB.Garu[3] 2A > 5B > 5C(2) > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > JC (combos into Mahamaon) (125 SP total for setup and combo) 5AA > 5B > Sweep > SB.Garu[3] (crossunder) > 2A > 5B > 5C(2) > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > j.C (125 SP) 2A > Sweep > bnb (125 SP) 2B > JC > SB.Garu etc... (125 SP) IAD j.A > bnb (125 SP) Pretty much, you can do whatever you want. It's actually quite easy to land a hit here; the enemy will be antsy and any hit (granted you have SOME meter) gives you the instant kill. If you don't have enough meter right away, you can still combo them right back on top of Mahamaon and go for mixups, like simply rolling behind them for a mahamaon crossup. To be successful with this you really need to read your opponent.

================================================== Elizabeth Tricks and Gimmicks Compilation ================================================== "She was not lying when she said she has several effective ways of inflicting pain" Credits: Elochai for updates on gimmicks ryofoong and TD for the idea. Juunee for 5C(2) > JD information and evidence. TD for chicken block trick Geobuster for JD Extend range trick Synthesis for Mahamaon Trick. chuchoyei for more JD reset information. Pulsr for video showing instant overhead. Eshi for safe jump setup and maragidyne oki trick. Table of Contents: Introduction Gimmicks 1. Introduction Solid player but tired of having a one dimensional playstyle? Want to look for several effective ways of inflicting pain? Well you've come to the right place. This thread is designed to provide you with the many options to keep your opponent on their toes, and will bring more creativity into your gameplay which will always bring something fresh and new. Of course this thread is open for discussion, so feel free to contribute anything you may want to add and hopefully we could get a nice list going on!

Sorry to hear that. That is particularly what I wanted to avoid in my respective forums, and I just wanna be able to do everything I can to help you guys. In that case, I can work on this now. I only didn't think a whole thread for it was necessary because I had that stuff in the data thread but considering how big the list can get it would be much more appropriate to have a dedicated thread for it. I'll cut it out of the data thread too.

You can attack him with B/SB.Zio but if you use the A version he can punish you with TV. He could also super jump over the laser and punish you so be careful with how, where and when you use it. At the beginning of the round he could hit you with the bat. I tried to IAD away and sometimes I ended up getting hit. R-Action can be dealt with, with 5D, and if he's closer to you I wouldn't recommended using 5B at all. Beat the jump ins with 2B and use JB whilst trying to create more space between yourselves.

This is a difficult matchup which isn't in our favour. Shadow Labrys' damage is not particularly her forte but she is very good with keeping you under control or locked down once she has gotten you in. If Asterios is underground what you'd want to do is move around in the air so that his uppercut misses, or you have to stand there and block it whilst S.Labrys comes in and goes for some sort of mixup. Asterios being able to go underground is why you should be very careful with using Maziodyne or Maragidyne. If you get in close, you need to be mindful with your blockstrings because her F-Action completes destroys any mixup or pressure we may try to inflict. If you do manage to bait the F-Action you can punish with 5C(2) CH > 2C > B.Bufu > SB.Agi > Stuff into at least 4k. Remember she only has 8k. Anti airing her with 2B is awkward too because her JB sometimes goes in her favour scoring her a CH. Asterios' hammer attack isn't a high, it hits low, so be wary about that.

Yea honestly I can't believe I missed that method but ah well. The clarification helped, and with that it's made my D.Garu combos a helluva lot easier. It's actually really fun to do too and I've been using it all the time ever since. I'll admit I'm still iffy about using it on Teddie and Aigis though.

Ryo if you need any help with the thread I can take care of it for ya if you want. It was TD and your idea though so it's your call.

I've made the correction Elochai. Nice to see ya Bees.

To be more specific, this is what I mean when I say you should be careful in jumping backwards, making sure not to jump back late. This is what I mean with JD, though she missed it's just to show you. Nice to see ya and NP.

It's legit. Just make sure you don't jump backwards late because she could catch you in the air with Mabufudyne, which is air unblockable, or even JD.

We don't know, you're asking us a question which we have no info on. It's like me asking if 22D does 1k. I can't even answer your other questions because I either do not understand it, or they are in the first post!

After 5C(2) on hit you have two combo followup options. You can go for A.Zio, or JC, JC being the preferred option. With JC ender you can go for an air dash and go for JB > Pressure if necessary. NP.

Regardless you're still my favourite queen. Can you upload the BBCS:EX Tsubaki Yayoi In-Depth Combo Tutorial please?

You need to be very careful with using SB.Agi at mid range, because it's much easier to get you this way. Players could dash then quick escape through the flames and score a full combo on you, or in Aki's case he could just box you in the face. In fact, you probably shouldn't be using it at that range at all. Seeing you get hit out of 5B > Sweep is lol. I think should be a little careful with your R-Action use, and I also feel that there are times where you could optimise your corner combos. For example, against aBL4CKST4Ra part 2, at 2:06, instead of ending with B.Bufu > JC, you could do B.Bufu > 2C > SB.Zio and get your paralysis. There were points were you could've won/won quicker against Aki had you used the more optimal combos, but since he had a burst I suspected that you may have wanted to bait them. While 5C(2) > 5D resets are cool sometimes, I don't think you should grow to get accustomed to this because in the long run I feel they'll hurt you more than work in your favour.

Yea, no rush. The thread may have to be remade though because you're gonna need more than one post for all the hefty information that can go there.

They're more like tech traps. I love any contributions that you guys can find though. If you're gonna make it easier for people who want the raw gimmick data, you may want to make it a little easier to read. This is an example of what I mean.

Yosuke's EX Dash is projectile invulnerable only. If you see the match I had against Chazmobile, you will see I used my R-action on it a couple of times, and at the end of part 3 I was able to beat it with 5D. If he catches you he can go into moonsault combo/mixup like normal. To punish his R-action, you have to wait a while, then punish. I punish with 5C CH > 2C, but ofc in the corner you could go for 2C which is even better.