Osuna

I'm not saying don't think he got better, but to be fair he also Doesn't have options where used used to have them.

Well, I like to think I'm pretty critical rather than pessimistic. It's not like I'm going to change characters. Most of my pessimism has been reasonably accurate too. Remember when the IB nerf came out? Someone, I forget who, said something to the effect "We get repeatable pressure with Asledge now" Which simply wasn't true even before we found out that it got a recovery nerf. Post nerf it is Super untrue. I guess that's people being overly optimistic rather than me being pessimistic though. While I haven't written off 6A quite yet, the consensus now is that the armor is inconveniently placed so it doesn't work for most of the functions people were raving about when it was announced. But I had said from the start it looked like something iffy with it's many limitations. I specifically mentioned that a lot of it's supposed functions were likely to be beaten on reaction when people got used to it. As time went on we only discovered More limitations. I Never understood why people were hype about GF since the risk-reward was just bad. I'm just saying it before All of us are telling the new guys the same; that we Don't have safe, reliable primer breaking abilities without spark bolt and it's easier to get primers back against us than any other character if we don't have spark bolt. Calling it a buff, is correct, but everyone got that buff. And our version of the buff is pretty meh even before you compare it to people with a much better primer game. People keep talking about it like it's amazing, but it's just "meh". Not like I won't ever use it, it's just not That great. Besides everyone is looking at it the wrong way when they say silly stuff like "guard break 720's all day". The real buff is they can't burst twice without having to constantly watch out for SB and we should be looking for 100 meter inescapable guard breaks (Or as close as we can get to it) on someone who has bursted 1 time. Preferably that lets you hitconfirm to see if they barriered so you don't stop too early or too late. Then you should go for a 360B. That will take a flexible plan of action, but have much better results. It's like an upgrade from a 100 meter MTW RC mix up if we can somehow manage a sure fire break off 100 meter. After that we can look for mix ups where people low on primers might do something to save a primer and eat something for their trouble.

How nice it would be to end every block string with spark bolt. Barrier means the opponent needs to have 1 primer and be missing some barrier to be guard broken by a 3 primer string if I remember how much barrier it takes, which I very well may not. (so plus or minus 1 I guess) And that's why I think Guard crush looks pretty gimmicky. 50 meter and spark and the only plausible break situation is against someone who used 2 bursts in 1 round.Like every other tool we're given, we're going to piss off noobs with it and it won't even factor into 90+% of legit matches. And how do they get primers back? By doing long character specific combos on us, not being in long block strings that we don't have, and by zoning us. How do we drop their primers without getting them to burst? Spark bolt and RCing very unsafe moves.

I would if we could find a place. I'm also up for BB, and goofing around on MVC3 if anyone else is interested. I also don't know how to play arcana heart 3 but will try anyway. I am so so bored.

Not only does it not count as a combo because of the purple throws, but the game doesn't pick it up as a combo because GF 360B isn't a comboed purple throw, It's a throw during their throw protection period. (If anyone knows can they message me the normal protection period length and/or the GF version?)

So what was that "get away with special canceling" line about from before? The only special cancels I know that's not terribly unsafe are...not on Tager. The most aggressive and coolest is XYH 720, but that's hardly safe. I just want to make sure I didn't miss something. So if they block 2C we're screwed because we have no safe options after that, but if we want to or have to omit any mix up off 6A we can make it safe with 4D. Actually, would that work as a ghetto mix up? 2C>3C/XYH720?

I'm on break now and want to do something awesome somewhere. So someone should take me to something, or whatever.

Wait, so how are we supposed to end block strings now if we can't 4D and 3C is still very unsafe? If they block 2C what do we do? It can't be canceled into throws for some reason, right? There's no real mix up we can go for and it only leads to stuff that's unsafe on block. There's like... XYH 720 and that's it as options apart from 3C. I guess we just have to commit to our dangerous mix up more. Tager's primer destroying abilities are pretty meh looking to me right now. I'm thinking there are probably 3 or 4 characters that do it better than him. That RC string everyone thinks of doesn't look inescapable, and it takes 50 meter to break Only 4 primers. To even threaten someone they need to be post burst and have used some barrier gauge already. (Or you could have gotten them to block spark not Too long before) Tager is also one of the easier characters to recover primers against. I mean, it is no longer cost effective to save bursts against Tager now, but that's not That different than from fighting anyone else. @ Axis. Might want to double check some of that math. -4 is enough disadvantage for most characters to be able to stuff 360A from a reasonable distance. Also (I'm pretty sure) No one can punish -4 on normal block, and everyone can punish it on IB.

Wait, they put a proration nerf on 5A? the move that lead to no damage Before the collider nerf? That's just weird. Asledge is still a free punish on IB, that's so sad. And 6A is only 2 frames faster? That's interesting, I would have thought it was more. I guess my concept of time is just wonky as usual. Interesting stuff though.

D divider was never a reversal. The invincibility nerf on isn't very meaningful. I'm C divider is easier to backdash now though. Nothing feels sadder than baiting the divider but screwing up the timing just enough to get hit anyway.

This very mysteriously is missing some important context on a lot of the lines. My main point was snipped from every line except the last one and I can't imagine what point you were trying to make. You've cut most of the lines you're quoting in half o_o; First I opened by saying that you could call burst a come back mechanic, but the reason people hate XF and stuff like it isn't because they are granted by getting hit. Which I considered synonymous with come back mechanics (I've never heard of one that wasn't activate at least indirectly by taking damage). This is important because it makes half of your criticism sound crazy. You can't tell how stopping someone from getting the same benefit doesn't apply to bursts? Bursting a combo doesn't stop your opponent from bursting your combo. Yeah that would be called a come back mechanic, I've already said the reason people hate them is because all other ones seem to also create situations where the benefit is only gained by one player for the entire round because he got beat up faster. If you got beat up enough to burst twice in one round, then what is stopping your opponent from bursting? You both can do the same things, in a mirror match and end up even. In certain other games this would not be the case. I'm glad you agreed with me in the last half of one of my sentences. Yes, being able to suddenly end a match because you're at a health disadvantage is stupid. This is what everyone has been complaining about for a long long time. Seriously, dude what was that about? Were you in a hurry? This is totally not cool.

Maybe we need a little primer with frame data related to tager mix ups and resets. That way people can find out the little things like Jump start up being throw invincible and properties of techs and such. It seems surprisingly often people don't know the things that define Tager's mix ups and tech traps.

Burst under some definitions might be considered a come back mechanic, however the reason people don't like XF, Rage, or ultras isn't because they are something gained from getting hit, but there are so significant that within the context of a round it is very likely that getting it First could give you an edge that often Stops the opponent from getting the same benefit. In this way the person who was losing gets an unfair advantage by virtue of losing. If you escape a combo with a burst then get beat up enough to burst again and you use that to turn the battle around, then your opponent until he bursts twice I wouldn't say either player was advantaged. If your opponent bursts twice and you never get hit enough for a second burst, then you aren't exactly losing over it. Same with gold bursts, both players get that option. Neither is truly advantaged in that sense. An FADC combo into ultra, or a BNB with Rage, or a level 3 XFC affects your opponent significantly, and can suddenly end matches with less work than it took to beat you up enough for that mechanic to kick in. Both players can do the same amount of work, but the one who started off the worst is often the only one who gets the advantage. Or occasionally they both get it, but whoever got it first was advantaged into a level playing field the mechanic. Getting the comeback mechanic when both players are dying is not as valuable as when you're losing.

Sorry Axis, just one more from me. There were some ideas I didn't see and he was responding to me so I think just this much is ok. Tager is indeed not crippled by his changes, he has sucked since CT. They can't give him CS1 rachel treatment because that requires him to have been good at some point. Tager could 6A most backdashes in CS1 for what I consider significantly more damage than he can now, so if you want to count that as a utility of his new 6A I would call it a nerf. The pull is cute, but the sparsely placed armor puts him at pretty high risk (Especially since holding it for any meaningful length of pull gives the opponent enough time to react as long as they have an option available to them) just like all of his other methods of closing in besides walking and jumping it is dangerous. Someone else also made the mistake of assuming instantblock nerf made Asledge good a while. It's no longer punishable by everyone, but that doesn't mean it is plus on block. Gatlings into 4D were safer and got mag on block. That would make Asledge as a block string ender worse than what we have in CS1. XYH, and cancel into it? If you're doing it off a blocked attack then I have no idea how that can be a defensive option. Having to block is not a defensive option. That's Not having a defensive option. By definition, having to block a lot means his defensive options are bad. A tager beating a Hazama doesn't say anything unless the match up was projected to be 10-0. This doesn't mean he'll do worse in CS2, but he's not Good either.

I'm pretty sure anyone should be able to tell why CS2 Tager is projected to be bad. His mix up game outside of spending 50 to 100 meter puts the odds against him (and Ragna gets a better otg throw). 6A's sparsely applied armor hasn't yet found a use that isn't done better by other moves, and it took a damage nerf for it. Collider, the biggest meterless damage source in his combos got nerfed. His move proration is still designed for his old combo rate and makes his combo damage range from average to terrible. His defensive options aren't very good, and he has a terrible counter assault. IB got nerfed so the ability to IB command throw is significantly downgraded. In addition to those bad defensive options he also has a huge hitbox giving most of the cast character specific mixups/combos. Buffing his throws was nice, but the reason he has so many bad match ups wasn't that his throws didn't do enough damage and he didn't get enough buffs outside of that, that we have seen, to be optimistic about it. High hp doesn't exactly compensate for much since his risk reward isn't that good even when he does get in.

People better go to this. Especially Munsu so I can go to this, and hopefully take the Blaz player I found in Battleground somehow.

Why on earth would anyone ever use his 6B as an overhead in a block string? Even if you get them to block low you would then throw them because his overhead prorates so much you'll never get comparable damage even if it hits. His overhead doesn't even factor in unless you're doing something neat with GF RC. Ragna's entire mix up off a block string doesn't really require you to guess very often, since you can block the overheads on reaction, so I could see someone looking at pressure that forces an unreactionable mix up (Though a bad one) versus one that just gets blocked on reaction and say that there is strong pressure in having to play the mix up game. Was all I was saying. I personally wouldn't call it strong pressure, but that's all conjecture anyway. I'm sure LK will explain.

I didn't question it because I assumed he was referring to how, unlike with ragna especially, you can just react to tager's mix up. At man points he might be throwing out a 6 frame throw that can't be teched So his pressure is string in that you have to yomi some things, where as ragna's overheads and throw could be reasonably avoided on reaction unless he does something really fancy to get past how linear his strings and obvious his overheads are. Like a lot of the other people, I wouldn't call it good pressure, personally. That's just what I thought. Actually since this is the place, LK what does good pressure mean, regarding tager?

I'm hoping for a good turn out too, much more fun that way. Then again CS2 would be fun, in its own way. I actually notice a lot of litchis, even some otherwise quite good ones, seem to be pretty bothered by magnetism. I wonder of there is some more scientific way of describing how that happens. Perhaps it has something to do with certain specific distances under magnetism. I wonder if the changes to 5D magnetism will interfere with that chemistry a little. Ponder ponder ponder.

I see I see, that stuff was worked on a bit, but time will tell. Have any favorites for Evo? I'm rootin' for seattle/tacoma area to sweep it again.Actually more importantly, is there anything Tagers can do to give you a hard time as litchi. Assuming they got in already? Or mistakes commonly made in the match up besides the obvious stuff like wasting spark from full screen for no reason. Actually (Lots of actuallies today) could you tell me what you like to do to tager? Up close, since most zoning is kinda self explanatory with that match up. Or I guess if you never end up close, then sad face. @dacid "6A should be incredibly strong against ara" and "IB 6A and IB Voltic Charge 720, could be very strong. Give it time" These are your first claims. Neither mention tricks, but you'll see multiple posts from Tager mains who mention gimmicks. Like with the point about ara's damage reduction, you seem to be trying to take the ground we agreed on From the Start as your position, which can't possibly be what we were arguing about. You also made a appeal to consequences argument (A fallacy) that was totally unsubstantiated. Describing how the community was being destroyed by educated pessimism, and built by your educated optimism was so out there I was going to call it a slippery slope argument before I realized it only had 2 steps. One of the first things I did was tell you that I didn't think the match up necessarily got worse, and the other tagers agreed with me, but we're all being called pessimists. That's a false dichotomy fallacy that led you to misrepresent everyone except skye. (Misrepresent as in strawman) Anywho this has gone beyond ridiculous in no small part thanks to my above average displeasure with bad arguments. I've already taken the time to write this whole post out, but after this I'll be private messaging any further objections, which in retrospect I should have done from the start. Sorry, LK.

That makes sense, it is still early. I've seen you talk about hating arakune once or twice before. I think maybe it came up as a match up you hate once? Do you mind elaborating on that? I mean, I know why a lot of people hate him, but I would think you might have some insight into Ara's character that I wouldn't from your experience. Or maybe it's just same old same old. @dacid As a former member of a debate team (Before anyone thinks I'm bragging or something I was terrible at it) I'm kinda offended that you've made such horrible arguments this whole time and then invoked straw man to defend yourself. You also kept changing your supporting arguments and even ended up on the better risk reward as a result of Ara's nerfing, which I had already brought up when I was saying the match up wasn't necessarily worse. This whole thing started when you made a post, skye disagreed and said the match up got worse, and some tagers popped up to say 6A isn't all that great so far. Note, only one person said the match up got worse and it was an ara player so he wasn't exactly being pessimistic. Then you went on about how Incredibly strong 6A should be against ara. People contended, with many examples of how 6A when matched up against ara's moves just straight up loses. Then your stance changes to, certain things Could be very strong, give it some time. And all the time you're changing what we're allowed to talk about. Can't speculate. But you are too. Well, mine is more likely so only likely speculation is allowed. Ours is pretty likely too. Examples examples. You can't speculate. You already said that one. Then you can only speculate if it is optimistic, because everyone's already giving up on the whole match up.<-strawman But the one that said that was Skye, the tager mains didn't say the match got worse.

Thanks FlyingVe for expanding on why IB XYH 720 (as an anti air he seems to be implying?) is just a weird thing to say, how japan is using the moves, and that f.g is stupid. And anything else I forgot to mention. I mean there's some interesting things you can do with his changes, but I haven't heard one that isn't defeated every time by a single option. It might, in some cases, seal an option or two, but that doesn't mean ara doesn't get everything he needs. That's kinda the case for every tool Tager has ever had. Also, thanks to cake for trolling in defense of my Tager. I know you'd have trolled dacid anyway, but I appreciate the confidence in my Tager. Uh so... LK what did you think about....that...gameplay related...um. Arakune's f.g recurse and getting curse off ja and 5a. Do you think that we're over reacting because other characters aren't developed yet/need to learn how to block, or is it really as ridiculous as everyone says?

Indeed, given the premise your provided that does make more sense, that's still not what you said though. Anywho let's run with it. Tager has been the bottom in 2 games, and is never intended to be top. IB got nerfed to the point where 360A and 720 can only be used about half as often as before (Varies match up to match up of course), and IB XYH 720 doesn't make any sense, it would only delay the 720 by adding CH start up frames. 6A was used a lot early on, and isn't anymore. I'm of the opinion that's probably because it has no obvious uses. There's also the difficulty of using any amount of charge on the 6A because it makes it pretty punishable on reaction. I don't disagree with you that the match up is better, or at the very least not very much worse because of some changes made to Arakune, but Tager's options don't look better for this particular match up. Unless upon close inspection of frame data in the future someone figures out a way to use 6A that is both useful and not completely circumventable by ara's many options that currently don't worry about it too much, you're still wrong. We all know Game developers don't have a balance dial that just fixes things, and if they did it's no secret they don't want Tager to get too good. We can talk about what it should be on principle, but that doesn't mean anything. Tager's throws got buffed, but his ability to get you into his throw range is not so hot. On top of that his other combos, the ones far more likely to actually hit arakune, got damage nerfs. 6A loses to so much stuff on reaction already that proper use of it would be too specific at this point for it to be amazing in this match up. There's also the idea that the developers were able to come up with a way to balance the match up with his 6A, which is so subtle that we haven't got it yet. When were developers so clever with subtle details hidden away in the frame data that improves archtypally bad match ups? If we figure something like that out it almost certainly would not have been planned, it never is. On the other hand, he has to get us 2-3 times now instead of 1-2, and he can't full life combo us off curse or a fatal anymore. IB got nerfed, his a's got buffed and his f.g got stupid. Seems to me the important changes are ara nerfs/buffs and Tagers nerfs. I'm more bothered that your argument made no sense than that you think the match up will get better.

Dacid, you're ridiculous. You can't say a match up will get better before people have even been playing the game for 2 months. Give it time, stop being so optimistic. That argument doesn't imply you're right. It implies we shouldn't even be talking about this. Then you go on to talk more about it. Either we can speculate or we can't. Make up your mind. I did hear is j.B got nerfed in some way that was never fully explained to me (It better no longer be jump cancelable for all these assertions it would be beaten by 6A.), but it's not like arakune doesn't have very many air options. He spends quite a lot of time in the air and can combo into curse from j.A, so I don't see the big deal about 6A's new properties yet. It seems to me that it very slightly limits options by existing and then never gets used outside of combos.

But on the otherhand the maximum reach is now much lower, and pulling in during the active frames means that if they use the pull successfully instead of having to use a fast move to stuff it they can use a slower one because we'll have totally whiffed, which I imagine will happen a few times while I'm getting used to the reduced pull. Also sounds like I won't get to mix up off of 5D as much anymore. As for crazy, I was only able to figure out you wanted to use 6A to stop jumpers somehow, which it doesn't do a good job of. To decipher the rest I'd at least need the missing word in the first sentence. "I would if it chraging 6A it changes the way it______"