Osuna

As far as 22D being like ragna 22C, I was more outraged that Ragna's was so much better than ours than we didn't get it. Seriously the Rushdown character gets a better version of a throw than a grappler? Stagger gives some interesting advantage and options and would make Tager quite strong. People had RC'd GF into 5D for the stagger, and the stagger on 5D isn't even that good (If they tech asap you only get about 2 frames of advantage.), but stagger grounds them until they tech or are hit. The 3 frame window for unbreakable throws isn't That big of a deal, they can tech at any point across a very long continuum or not at all and we have to guess when those 3 frames will be. Also if they make the minimum tech time tight like with 5D, they could do the minimum tech and never be in danger of an inescapable throw. At the end of a long combo you could do a real tight 5A 360B if you think they won't tech, or at least you would have been able to if they didn't nerf 5A. The real problem is that, unlike all of our real unintuitive options, GF with Stagger would actually give us an advantage up close with a lot of aggressive options and limited defensive options for them. There's no way they'll let us have a confusing and good move, it makes games unfun and that's probably the rationalization for not making us good in the first place.

J.D's pull isn't That weak though, which is what I'm saying. It seems weak because it doesn't pull for as long as it used to. Combine with our few active frames and it could very easily end up not helping.

J.D''s pull isn't bad because the strength is low it is bad because the pull starts very late, your idea of putting pull on the start up of more moves if it started Really late might not really be helpful except for combos and it might screw up some other combos.

IB makes all tackles punishable except for D version which should be the only one she uses because it is safe, but even that isn't a free block string since we have our usual "mix up" minus 5A off her drive tackle. And yeah, her DP is safe if she has charges. Plus big damage and good meter gain if you get hit by anything. It's kinda like fighting CS1 Ragna. Tager doesn't need a new anti air he needs a buff to his existing 3 or 4. Giving C moves pull during start up would make them better than D moves as pokes and do who knows what to his combo ability on top of being really weird looking.

You know I know that. I've been complaining about it since Gadget finger at least. That's why I always prefix mix up with "stupid" or "Tager" or "Stupid Tager" or just put it in quotation marks.

Whaat? No she doesn't she's just Super tsubaki against Tager since she always has full charge and can run out the clock if she has to, pretty much everyone who isn't a zoner but with above average damage. She actually has to move in at some point and if she wants all of her powered up options she has to be on the ground next to you at some point. You don't really get punishes, but you do get mix up opportunities if you play it right and don't get hit by random stuff. I hate Mu's charged laser lock down. No risk mix ups and all that, I have to rely on match up inexperience to get good hits and then play it up close as long as I can.

What are you trying to make 360B do by making it faster that it doesn't do now and/or is not already done by 360A? I want Backdash to have less inuvln and less vulnerability, which is to say I wish it was shorter. I don't like that people can whiff and then often have time to recover and punish. I'd like to be able to backdash when people are all up in my grill, but again that's just my feelings. Do other people think CA is fine? Am I the only one wo thinks it is terrible? I've seen very few good uses for it, and all of those uses I've seen could have been done just as well or better by the CA's of pretty much any other member of the cast. Tager gets his stupid mix up off pretty much anything close to even on block so he doesn't need very many gatlings to get mix up going. Just let him 2C 4D again and you can mix up several different ways off his existing 'blockstrings' I renew my objections to slidehead as a special move in that the match ups we need help getting in on aren't really improved by making them jump. Haz, Rachel, Mu, Lambda, Tao and even Tsubaki can do their anti tager keep away about as well (Sometimes better) in the air, like half the cast can punish that kind of stuff from nearly full screen, most of them While airborn. XYH, and sledge are good ways to get killed trying to catch someone and you only sometimes have Spark. Again where are all these match ups where people need to run away while being on the ground? One of the innovations of this game is the engine that allows them to show off complex movement options (Wind, chains etc) and it shows. I can't think of a time where I've thought "Man I wish I had slidehead" But I often think, man I wish I had 6P, or Pot's BD, or flick, or 2S, or Hammerfall, or APB, or HPB or even Judge Gauntlet one time. Because those all have powerful applications that would have really saved me.

I didn't say AUB 5A would be great just crazy since, unlike hakumen we can't get a real combo off it and it is a large part of our mix up already. In guilty gear there were other characters with 3 frame moves, potemkin didn't have light and heavy throws either, so he didn't need to differentiate throw properties. Unless you're talking about increasing invinvibility if you hold it, which has never been a property of that move, to not decrease the invulnerability it would have to have no vulnerable start up, and then you talk about changing the invuln so I have no idea what you mean anymore. Anywho, less invuln frames means it is harder for me to use in footsies and as a ghetto anti air, because of fewer frames of safe mag pull and just safe frames in general. So if you made it faster without giving it insane mag pull and something else to make it easier to anti air with, no I would Not be able to use it the way I do now. As for the combo length I learned something today ~The more you know~ *Rainbow*. So it would just make like 360B potentially lead to 7k combos, which I'm sure Someone would complain about but whatevs. Does 6B have much more range? 4D also had mag (sometimes) and came out much faster (always) and it's been a while since I've played CS1 now, but I seems to remember it going active before the max 2C push back. In my experience, rush down and zoning characters don't have to bait backdash, they can option select/reaction punish it no problem if we're on the defensive, which makes it kinda eh as a defensive tool, but that's just me. And of course our jump start up is so long we can't use it defensively Really. My only point about the XYH changes was that if you could cancel it to 720 whenever there's no need for the armor buff. It's already become a strong tool in other areas. I was thinking one time, of what would make CA useful since ours sucks, and I thought that since it missed so much that if it had the slidehead knock down on whiff, I would occasionally use it instead of never. Just something silly I talk about with friends for a laugh. J.2C already leads to really good damage, making it fatal would only work if the pulled another 6B on us. Speaking of which a 13 frame overhead that breaks primer of a grappler is a Horrible idea. Unblockable J.2C is another gimmick, we have enough of those. Slidehead isn't that big of a deal, since zoners can zone us from the air and even if the didn't they'd likely stuff the move anyway. You guys are spending a lot of time on is kind of a goofy idea. The real use of it would be on oki from far away which is kinda mean and not fun and otherwise pretty gimmicky. Really most of the ideas you guys have only improve his ability to be hated by noobs. Like a great person once said, just a little bit earlier in this thread, stuff like better jump prevention would help his game more than a bunch of additional gimmicks. Just adding tools won't buff a character unless they meet a need. We have poor defensive options, and all our eggs are in the punishing noobs basket, we don't have very good anti airs, and our jump prevention is pretty bad. Our mix up game is often Not in our favor etc etc. Personally I'd be happy if they just took away his nerfs.

Depending on where they are 2C has pretty good horizontal range, but I know what you mean. Air unblockable 5A would be kinda crazy in general, but it's weird with tager because we get a mix up off them blocking it and on hit it doesn't lead to a real combo. No one else has a 4 frame move so it would be insane to give a a really high damage move the ability to stuff 5A's at +/-0 (some at -1, which also defeats some of the reason we have 360A and 720). 360A would also lose a lot of utility with fewer invuln frames and less time for magnet pull. Character rate of 55% with his current proration exemptions would make Tager's meter gain silly because he'd get longer combos on top of the extra damage. His damage and meter gain aren't completely horrible right now either. Would 2C 6B even work? It looks like it would miss like most of the time. 2C has a lot of push back and you'll have received all of it by the time 6B comes out. 2C 4D is a no brainer it was useful and would be again if they gave it back, and it would be nice for them to give us a halfway decent option defensively, like Dacidbro wanted for 6A, but I personally rather they buff our backdash than our XYH armor startup. And if we got the ability to cancel XYH whenever, no one would care that its armor is a little slow to start. I'm being critical, because the reasons some of these things don't work or would work too well is insightful to the way things work now, but even I have a silly wish list in my head. Here's a glimpse, counter assault has slidehead style knock down.

Well, yeah 'if it kills them' isnt quite the same as 'if I have meter' though. I'll do all kinds of weird shit to kill someone.

You do 360B Asledge into follow up?

Don't do sledge follow up. It doesn't do that much damage and doesn't get mag and doesn't seem to offer any other advantages.

What? But what? That's the option that puts them the furthest away right? Well I guess 2B collider on 360A might be a little farther, but if you need to stay "in their grill" wouldn't you just Gadget finger?

Maybe but we were talking about how Jayaku punishes active 720 as a reversal (Which might be a delusion, but I'm almost 100% sue I tested this), and you can have 360B active for 10 frames (you only need 8 frames to possibly meaty the super) I've never heard of that throw rule about two command throws going active at the same time. Is that true?

That is interesting, I wonder if this is a freaky buff for the first frame or just a message up nerf for held active frames. Ok, so it's technically and truly invulnerable for 5 frames then has 1 frame of freaky (in a good way) priority, then a bunch of frames of freaky (in a bad way) priority.

Now, it was a few weeks ago, but I seem to remember testing that and that Jayoku straight up wins if done as a reversal against a meaty 720, which either means it is a bad example, or that the mechanic doesn't work that way. I'm less certain that this has happened, but I think that a projectile has never stuffed my 720 granted my opponent was in range, even very active stuff like lobelias and pumpkins seam like I can reversal through them to grab someone, I also believe I once reversal 720'd through bang's nail super to kill someone who was being silly. But on the other hand I haven't played in over a week. CT is so far from being relevant for this discussion. I'm only going with tournament results because you suggested it, and I'm Sure Mike Z has at least placed since CT, but if all you know is 1 CT win versus a CS win, the only honest thing to do is to favor Jan. But before even that, the U.S. has a pretty low BB level in general, so who was the best at a really bad character in the U.S, which is kinda bad at this game even for the U.S., doesn't really matter that much when we could be watching japanese match videos.

Jan. Also what tournaments did Mike Z win first in? I only know the top four from evo last year, and he wasn't in it. Also Jan won the SBO spot in Texas and there was some decent competition for that spot.

Did Rachel backdash and then wind to get out of gadget mix up? Is there anything that can be done there short of spark bolt?

I do want to note that Tagertime's opinion is not typical of established blazblue players, in that Mike Z is not so good that he's clearly the best Tager much less the best Blazblue player. I personally would make the argument that Spark is the best BB player in the united states from what I've seen in major cs1 tournaments. But he's right to say I'm not a big name. I've only participated in northwest tournaments. Not that it matters That much who the best Tager in the U.S. is since he's such a bad character and the blazblue tournament level in the US is pretty low to begin with. Also TagerTime's fixated bitter post and signature reminds me, I used to run with the assumption that 720 was invulnerable for 5 frames, but wouldn't it be 6 frames when you include the first active frame?

J.C whiff lowest j.2C Gadget finger. Useful in certain combos and used to be the only way to GF certain characters reliably. It does the same damage as Bsledge GF (BGadget) and builds the same meter.

Since there is no such move as j.6C and for some reason I don't know what you mean by it, I'm gonna request that you relook at the combo notation. Actually does anyone else know what he means? I'm not too sharp right now. edit OH! You mean J.C whiff J.B right? It's a little character specific and a lot of characters will require you to walk forward the tiniest bit to get it to work. You also want to J.C very early so that you have enough time for the j.B to come out.

Your post word count: 238 Mine:201

The factor you aren't thoroughly considering is that even if you have a way around every option they have, if you can't do it on reaction then it's not as amazing as you're thinking. For example, by your logic, why DP EVER? The opponent can just block it. Because they don't always block it. Your logic only holds if they can only ever choose one option, and even then it's a little weak. 720 is only invincible for like 5 or 6 frames, and if it isn't active before they land you run the risk of letting them jump out again, but if if it is active before they land you're also not invincible and if they have air options to use against you, you can be hit out of it. Or they could just use air movement after certain techs and tech timings and get over your head without having to worry about getting thrown. If you think you've tested all techs, you're severely underestimating the options people have when recovering, especially on options regarding when to tech. People try similar tech traps on me as a tager player with nearly no air options and I can still get out of them fine.

I think purple throw combos aren't any better than other plausible blue beat combos and aren't really worth all of the discussion we're having since it should be reactable at any reasonable level of play.

Very noteworthy. You can get 4kish without doing anything particularly fancy and you get some heat back.