Osuna

In my experience, if you want out of the corner, you need to hit him. Which means you probably need to yomi Something. Which also means you need to remain aware of his options and appropriate counters to them. Because of collider, a lot of your combos will put him in the corner and therefore get you out. It's sure scary though. I think it'll be easier in time, but I rather spend time in the corner against cs1 litchi at the moment.

I came up with a similar list the other day. Everyone who can't fight outside of magnetised 360A range: Bad Everyone who Can fight outside of magnetised 360A range: Worse People good at a fighting outside of magnetised 360A range: Worst. I was just bitter on how hard it was to apply any pressure on someone outside a certain range. In case you couldn't tell.

Pessimism wins cs2 so hard. Way harder than cs1. As expected about 90% of my gameplan (Not that my gameplan was amazing, but still) no longer works and is replaced by gimmicks. So, what is anyone doing for magnetism now? Without the old 2C>4D, and J.D/5D I find myself not being able to hold mag very long. And when I do have it, it seems to be meaningless outside of 360A range.

I could do that in CS1 too and it was way more surprising back then. Also the magnetism changes on J.D and 5D seem to ruin way more of my game than what they give in return. There's so many ways I used to get mag that I have to do without now. I'm not really sure how to do it anymore.

I just tried it on a rachel player and she hit me before the active frames. With a projectile. The projectile armor doesn't last all the way to the active frames. sadface. 2C>4D and 6A jump cancel are hard for me to go on without. Now my game is all lows, throws, and forcing them to barrier block a lot in the air. The air unblockable buff to 6A has helped me 30 times more than the hella late armor.

Munsu and I have slightly tentative mostly certain plans to go. I think he already promised the two other comfortable seats to other friends though. He should correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that makes a full car, before anyone gets their hopes up.

We should get together a bilingual letter to ASW explaining that the reason grapplers discourage new players and can make things less fun for people is because they rely on unintuitive and often unreactionable mix ups that take more effort and time to learn for the defender than traditional high/low mix ups. So buffing his throws, giving him more unintuitive moves and nerfing/removing his legitimately strong options not only makes him very bad at tournament level, but makes him even More unfun for new players to fight. Which in my opinion defeats the entire purpose of making him bad in the first place. Then collect signatures or something.

Pessimism wins again! I'm not disappointed at all. Everything is what I expected it would be. Honestly, I don't actually think I'm pessimistic. I don't really see how anyone could have expected anything different from an honest analysis of the the changes that we've been aware of.

In the first 40 seconds of it and Hazama put himself in very plausible striking distance 3 times while Tager was not in block stun, but Tager chose options that didn't score a hit. In general he did way to many J.Ds, he wasted spark bolt a Lot (I think maybe every time?), and used 2D and BSledge in dangerous/unproductive ways. In the corner one of the big things Hazama wants is a chance to fly away and 2D is slow, telegraphed and has a low profile (for tager anyway) so it was pretty much giving him an even easier than usual way out. There were some other ways to improve the fight, but I think just not getting hit out a a J.D that couldn't possibly have hit because it extended your hit box and put you in CH state a bunch of times would give you more time and opportunities. IBing the chain was giving him a disproportionate meter gain compared to Haz too, so Tager wouldn't need that many chances. Our opportunities are generally pretty dangerous for us, but we don't have much choice.

So the 29th is totally my birthday so you guys should all just let me win.

I'm aware people disagree with me on the overhead thing, so I hope not to mislead anyone there. I do think that since he was getting hit out of them by pokes that going for a throw is a logical improvement for him.

Don't spinny super to get her off of you. Aside from being a bad way to do it, and inefficient even if it hits, having a gap that lets you spinny super probably means you could have 360A'd and almost certainly means you could have 720'd. My approach to getting better at this match up was as follows. Stop getting hit by stupid stuff. I worked really hard at trying grasp the retarded distance at which she could combo me from and to properly barrier her crazy anti airs that seem to hit us if we're 2 cm off the ground 3/4ths of a screen away. Really look out for those overheads too. In that vein learn to look for things while she has you in the corner, because honestly she Will get you there. I'm reasonably sure that her 2B>move staff>2B string isn't air tight and she was pretty liberal with it. It's scary but if you really catch one, throwing her out of an overhead (not the airborn one obviously) is decidedly better for you than blocking it. In general try to keep cool in the corner, opportunities present themselves. (You got a ton of fatals, a lot of your damage was done while she had you in the corner for example) Also if she calls staff while comboing you and you aren't airborn, you can try a 720. It's not exactly what you Should do, but I will find it hilarious. Again, this is just how I made things easier for myself, I'm no expert at the match up (If anyone could be). Oh also, in my opinion you shouldn't go for overheads ever, but I'll make a special argument for not going for it with litchi. She gets really good damage and oki off of 5A. 6B is our fastest grounded overhead and it is Crazy slow, can only be done off of certain moves, and it doesn't lead to much on block even if she doesn't stuff it. Throw mix ups are also dangerous to go for, but they are a lot faster and can beat out those pokes she stuffs your overheads with.

lol TagerTime made me popular. More seriously, I noticed in the guide that it said all normals, aside from drive were air unblockable, but I reasonably certain that 5A and 2A aren't air unblockable. That would be too cool. Even though you couldn't really combo from 5A that way.

Naw, Akicon was in the pacific northwest. I mostly played a billion matches with Cakewasbannedd. Till like 7 am. There's a good photo of me from the morning after, someone has it hosted somewhere but I downloaded it and didn't bother to save the link.

Thanks Axis. Since he's no longer defending himself I guess I'll just leave it at that. I'm not the only one who noticed what he was getting wrong, so I guess I don't have to worry about misinformation spreading. Oh and also, there's a funny story about that video. Ok, so when it first went up the related videos were all hispanic music videos (Osuna is a spanish surname) And one of them was something along the lines of DJ LADIDA and PACO OSUNA- BEING FREE Emphasis mine Akicon was fun though. Getting to grand finals impressed the hell out of the guys from Canada and made Huey saltier than I've ever seen him (He got 3rd). Edit: Oh wait he linked the winners finals, which I won. Grand finals I lose and that's where I saw the related video.

You misused the jargon and don't seem to understand the difference or how backdash interacts with ID as evidenced by the fact you even did a distance test (and did it wrong on top of that), which any of us could have told you was a complete waste of time. The things you don't seem to understand are a bigger deal than if you had just misspoke. You apparently don't know what a punish is, and can't see the difference between throwing someone out of their recovery frames and having enough time to collider them (which itself is a thoroughly confused statement). Also, the line "too early after gadget" is wrong, but that could be just an english mistake. I'm guessing you are kinda new to this whole higher level thing, which is cool. We were all new once and all have things to learn still. You misused a few terms and made a mistake or two regarding the game's system. That's not a huge deal, people do it all the time (especially with tager), but you're really arguing for some of it against some of us who have been examining the game data and competing seriously since CT, or before that if you want to count other franchises. When we all seem to disagree with you, you can (and I encourage you to) take it as an opportunity to learn something. I recommend you question where your confidence comes from and go ahead and ask someone if you have a question. Even when what you mean is correct you weren't really able to express it in fighting game terms and I wasn't the only one who let you know that your backdash bit and your first attempt to explain it were both said in ways that didn't convey that message at all. There's a lot to learn and there kinda always will be. That's ok. We work together, we ask questions, and we correct each other when we make a mistake. We learn from and teach each other. I'm sorry if I offended you by talking about weak arguments and stuff. I used to be on the debate team and get kinda irritated when people get confrontational without a solid parliamentary style argument to back it up. That's pretty much a flaw in my personality and it has gotten me into fights before. Not every disagreement has to be a debate; I'm just weird, but I'll do my best to work with you politely, if you work with us too. BTW Tager mains, I love you guys.

Yeah that's true in CS1 also and in any situation remotely similar to GF. The problem is that You in no uncertain terms said that you can 360 people out of the recovery frames of a burst if you XYH. Which I then claimed was impossible, then you brought up collider which came out of no where and proved my point that it isn't a punish, but rather a GF esque mix up.

I don't know why this is, but people tend to drop claims they have made in exchange for taking up claims that I made. I already said that it is easier to backdash ID. However it does not "Beat it clean" The language you used is not a synonym for what happens. It actually means something and you were misusing it. That's all I said about that. Also how is backdashing from "too far away" get you hit by an ID? Next, you claimed that you grab people out of the "recovery frames" of Burst. Now you're claiming you just get a redo of gadget finger mix up, which is what I claimed in the previous post. Also that's almost exactly the same as instant blocking it and way more dangerous. What the heck, guy? You've backed out of all of your claims, and just agreed with me over and made even more silly claims while trying to make it look like you are arguing with me from a position of authority. I brought up CS1 because it made your claims weird. You claimed that backdash beats ID clean now. It used to beat ID in CS1, the only change is that it is a little easier now, which is not the same as saying "It beats it now" which also implies that it didn't before and does so consistently now. Example 2, bursts can't be punished with XYH unless there were changes, which you now seem to agree with. Also your claim that "if you know what you're doing" XYH beats ID rapid is wrong and it says so right in your explanation. It's not if you know what you're doing, it's if they Don't know what they are doing. It's not a punish if it only works when they make a mistake, XYH is not a reliable punish for DPs and it isn't a punish At All for grounded bursts and RCable DPs. So even though you changed your claim from XYH being our primary way to beating those moves to that it Can beat those moves you're still wrong. Maybe you were misusing the jargon and didn't realize it. Heck maybe you just misspoke, it happens. Whatever it was, I'm not the only one who disagrees with you, so where does all this confidence come from that makes you think you can talk down to me like that? With those conclusions you can't stick to, you decided to get mean. Not cool. I can't believe someone got confrontational with me with weapons like those.

Ok, I know people have sorta covered this, but I feel the need to respond because your counter argument wasn't addressing mine exactly as I intended my arguments to be seen. So I'm thinking I wasn't clear enough so I'm going to try and make things crystal clear. You can and I still do, backdash ID in CS1, your goal is to match up the invulnerability frames against the active frames, which is easier to do now because ID has fewer active frames, but it's not like you can just backdash whenever and win. So backdash doesn't 'beat' it but can Sometimes be used to Dodge it. That is an important distinction. When we say ID beats overhead attempts clean we mean there's nothing they can do to make the overhead win. It just simply can't happen. Also, I haven't heard anywhere that bursts got slower, since they might have I didn't say anything but I'm a little more confident now that you are mistaken. In CS1 you can XYH through gold or blue burst and they could hold up and you would not have enough time to get them even with a 720. If it works like a charm you need to set the CPU to jump, or tell your opponent how to escape it. Though someone feel free to chime in and tell me I'm wrong because I'd love to hear about any more buffs we got in exchange for our totally unnecessary nerfs. To me it looks like a best case scenario of a 4 frame advantage (likey less) and a worst case of just eating a huge combo. For that reason I don't think it should even be listed, but as you may recall, my original contention was that it wasn't our primary method of dealing with those options and realistically it deals with neither reliably. I think I have made my case clearer than before.

I don't think backdashing ID can be described with those terms. Since it doesn't beat ID unless the frames line up such that we dodge it. Normally when we say something beats something clean we mean that it's properties just straight out win head to head. Also XYH isn't how we should beat reversals that can be rapided, since it pretty much gives them a free CH into combo. Or Bursts since it can't be canceled past frame 11 and it's too slow to punish a burst in CS1, so unless bursts are slower it still won't punish a burst unless they are in the air when they burst. So voltech charge is quite bad for those situations, not even close to being our primary punish.

While I don't know the actual answer, the solution may very well be that 2C has a much higher p1 than MTW.

That's pretty cool. Will make a note of it.

Under which conditions is that true? Because I have to tell you I've seen people jump up and down over and over into held 720s without being thrown, but other times people swear they were holding up when I threw them. I never quite understood when exactly people have to avoid landing in a throw.

Then we're really talking about different instances. 5C 6A 2C would have slightly better proration I think, because I only know/remember for sure that 6A's p1 got nerfed. It wouldn't work at all distances though. Certainly not all the distances 6A 2C used to work at in CS1 and even that didn't work at the distance 5C 6C can, and it would logically have to be further away than 2C to be worth it. So I think 5C 6C will see more action. I block bursts off 5C's in CS1, so I'm pretty confident that'll be as you say.

Why would it be -1? It's -2 in CS1. Someone said repeatable pressure with asledge in reaction to the news that IB got nerfed or at least that's what my fallable memory tells me. -4 would be enough for there to be no repeatable pressure on anyone with a 5 frame move. Since you have 2 frames of vulnerable start up on 360A and that you're only meterless option of keeping them blocking while they are at advantage out of fear, I think. I forget how those things synch up sometimes. But it would have been minus 5 once the news came in on the IB nerf only being 2 frames fewer. Now it's even worse. IMO to have legit repeatable pressure you would like to be plus on block. I rather have a 5D that gives incentive to rush rush me and increases the max distance I can threaten zoners than to having a safer, lower reach 5D, personally. 2C only gatlings to 3C now which makes it terrible on block. 2C is much more dangerous to use now that it can't be made safe on block, it also nerfs our guard break ability. I'm still sad about the IB nerfs, but on the bright side some of them are balanced by the throws buffs, so it's not a complete loss there. Speaking of changes that aren't exactly nerfs, they nerfed the proration on 6A so it's not nearly as good of a punish. 5C(CH)6C looks like it will replace it. Which isn't that bad, as a starter it is now very comparable to our old 6A 2C. Although, didn't 6C have repeat proration? So you can't follow it with colider whiff 6C. 6A probably won't lead to that either. Naked collider does for less than 3K. Gaahh I wish I had CS2 for the psp.