Osuna

Someone said 360B should be 2 frames faster, and I asked why since it is fine on offense and 360A would be better on defense.

People have already brought up slidehead and I think it doesn't work very well in BB since the people who zone can do it airborn (Unless it were crazy fast, half the cast could punish it on reaction), and have tech options GG didn't have and Tager's approach options are slower and crappier. If you Did make it any good, spark would be reduced to a combo extender. People keep coming up with buff that are pretty much "Let's make him nothing like tager", which I admit freely would obviously be a buff, but he doesn't need to Potemgief+vampire slayers character whose name I already forgot. There are changes you could make to tager as he is now to make him a reasonable character. I don't think I agree that potemkin was a defensive monster, on the grounds that he had really good offense and that's what made him dangerous on defense. Pretty much everything led to heat knuckle oki (which was pretty darn good) and built meter. He had a legit and very fast low throw mix up. Hammerfall frc and break had implications for damage, combos, and burst safe stuff, but it also meant that he could kinda rush you down. His meter gain was insane, and he could spend it on all of his combos which weren't That bad meterless. He had a good anti air, and his overhead wasn't horrible. His normals were good on top of it all, his 5P wasn't the fastest but it was far from slow. FDB actually beat projectiles (But not fish). Pot Buster had invincibility on it too. He was just better than tager is in every conceivable way. Projectile invulnerability on spark bolt would make it do what it always should have, but since they aren't giving that to us I would settle for them giving it reasonable proration again. Sledge is almost always terrible anywhere except the end of a combo, so it needs Something buffed for sure. Also I think you need to define the mistakes he needs to be able to punish before you start buffing throw speed to completely unreasonable levels, because I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish. A bit faster 2D and sledge would still suck. Even if you took 5 frames off sledge it'd be 30 frames of start up. It would only make inefficient combos possible. The problem with them is they are bad moves to move forward with, they aren't made to work that way. Not even close. You'll need to completely change them to make them do that which would be the most forced change ever, to turn a move into what scrubs think it is.

Resets aren't combos.

Noticing my post is gone. I'll some up. I've been playing this like CT nu except he moves in different directions (for example, flys over me instead of through me in the corner). Aslo the mix up has to happen relatively nearby if they go for it. So in a way it is a little better So what's everyone else doing?

Not exactly, what I mean is Everything we do at that range sucks, if you have to hold down 360A to get them in rang unless it's a weird punish, in which case the long start up of 360A is what makes that punish Possible, then it's not a very good idea. I'm objecting to you even mentioning that as a con, because there is no counter example of something that Is good at that range for 1. If you want to count it as a weakness, every move tager has has that weakness. And 2, the delay has other uses and even if it got a frame or two of additional vulnerable start up, those uses would still be buffed even if the traditional ones were certainly nerfed. The thing that buffs them is the increased start up time. So it's like you're coming up with a situation in which no one does, or a least should use the move and claiming it is a weakness for no reason. It's like saying 6B is a bad move because it's hard to anti air with.

Can someone do me a huge favor and test out what level of proration allows 4D 22D but not Egadget or whatever? It would be very helpful, it has a few very minor implications on combos and I'd like to understand it. Like (CH)5D, 2Cxx623Cx2, 6C, J.2C, 2B>2Cxx623C, 4D, 22D. Is very slightly better than what I used to do. EDIT: I think I'm going insane because I can get (CH)4D, 6B>2Cxx623Cx2, 6B>2Cxx623C, 4D,22D, but I can't get (CH)4D, 5C>6Bxx623Cx2, 6B>2Cxx623C, 4D, 22D. An off day I guess? EDIT2: Also, I know it kinda sucks, but we don't have any 6B combos on the front page, except the one that isn't a combo.

They are doing it on purpose because strong grapplers are discouraging to new players, but they are doing it the wrong way, is what I hear. And no 2D is no good either outside of combos. We have no safe or effective ways to chase people.

If it was a little slower (a few more frames of invulnerable start up) it would ghetto anti air more things and have more magnetized pull. It's magnetized pull because of its greater start up makes its range Much better than 360B. It's one of the only 2 supposed buffs that I've actually found a lot of use for. The invulnerability also just generaly allows it to be used in many more situations than 360B, which is essentially his normal throw in speed and range on someone who can't even hop forward. Most people I think should end up using 360A more often than B because if you're using B a lot your opponent is fucking up a lot. I personally found that when I was transitioning to CS2 that I was losing a lot to people who obviously played it more (Nineballinfinite and some litchis especially), and was just terrible on defense, could never get them off me. I started using 360A more and I started winning. That's not to say I could spam it, but they couldn't stagger blockstrings every time anymore, and if they didn't back off while magnetized, I was able to make rushing in a little dangerous. I wonder why people keep bringing up, "Yeah but if you use it from far enough away to have to hold it down..." Why would you do anything from that range? You literally can't do anything remotely safe or effective from that range even if they are magnetized. Your only option is to try to get closer. That's part of why I came up with that tier list a while ago: People who can't fight outside magnetized 360A range, Bad People who can fight outside magnetized 360A range, Worse People who fight very well from outside magnetized 360A range, Worst

I'm a little confused why you're bothered by its range. I'm going to tell you what it sounds like in overly simple terms just to explain myself, so please don't feel like I'm mocking you. "360A's range is vastly superior but sucks because it's only unreactionably fast, which is why 360B is better, heck we should make it faster so that it pulls even less." so I think I'm not getting that idea. I personally use 360A a lot, and really wish it had a damage buff so I get what you mean by it not really worth it, but I do still think that buffing 360B that way is Hyper situational, whereas buffing 360A would just be generally more useful. Less than 4K and some meter gain would be plenty worthwhile to me. Again, I want to emphasize that the speed on 360A isn't a problem, and it adds a lot of use to the move without taking much away. I can't think of a time where I wishes it were 4 or 5 frames faster. Occasionally I've wished it was a frame or two slower. I agree with then notion that he needs better normals, but I feel like his throws receive a nerf with the changes they get. Grappling would become more difficult, and without 720 and with 360B's situational buff, Tagers threat up close isn't very significant, the main thing making him scarier up close is the general damage boost and the speed boost to some of his normals (referring to your wish list) The threat of his throws aren't buffed that much except for the 22D buff. Heck the 22D buff alone would improve the risk reward on 360A. But that kind of stuff needs specific frame data to be assessed. People had 6A super armor, and VC xx 720 on their list too, the value is in the details. (Were the sloppy joes good?)

The magnet pulls before the active frame, meaning the reason it catches them from super far right now, which it does, is Because it is slower. Also if you're going for it outside of it's range and have to hold it you're being kinda silly. On top of that, it Can do that, 360B can't, the ranges simply can't be compared. And now I'm going to wait for a response to this too so we aren't having two conversations anymore.

I'm referring to it being invincible, and having very long range. The 360B speed buff mostly amounts to a damage buff since instead of creating a ton of new situations for throws it just turns some of 360A's spots in 360B spots, which is nice, but it doesn't give you anything except damage in return for losing the ability to punish many many things. And while they will never get rid of it, I don't disagree that it is probably one reason why we suck. I'm just saying if your changes don't give us a net gain then they are nerfs. EDIT: By which I mean we lose a lot of punish chances but gain very very few since most of the new uses were already fulfilled by 360A.

What I mean to say is since the buff doesn't make up for what the 720 does at all, that it is in fact a nerf when put into context. EDIT: also where are all these situations where the speed on 360A is a liability?

Then combine them into one move. The reason 360A is used in all of these situations is that it is supposed to be and 360B is supposed to punish Big mistakes/be used aggressively. If you want more damage defensively or in ambiguous situations just buff 360A instead of making 360B do everything. 360A has all the utility you want but not of the damage, so buff it a bit. Otherwise there's almost no point to having 2 throws. EDIT: In what situation does the speed difference matter besides the Very few cases of straight up punishment (which would only be at CS1 level, and below 720 level even if it was faster) and tick throws, which it does fine already. Because the mix up is unreactionable, their options all work very well with reversal timing, it doesn't give us anything to win with in that situation. That's what I mean when I bring up unreactionability.

Bsledge has 35 frames of start up, which is very reactionable, but if by "close enough" you mean close so that they don't know if it is Asledge or bsledge then it isn't being used as a command dash. The classic/current problem with that is that they can optionselect punish Both sledges if they suspect 1.

Because sledge follow up isn't plus on block. It's very minus on block. Even meaty it is minus on block. It's also no fully projectile invulnerable and very punishable on whiff. (There is also an 8 frame gap minimum between Bsledge and follow up)

Let's say they are +1 and you 360A and they 5A right? So the difference, and the only situation you have come up with is that if they stand there and do nothing, they will get thrown. This makes no sense, as crappy as it is, you can't react to tager's throw mix up, unless you go for an overhead which I personally don't like. So if they are standing around a little bit and not jumping it means they chose not to jump. 360A would still hit. 360A would also hit at greater disadvantage.

Ok, getting grabbed when? Can you think of an example? I'd like to examine some context to see if it could actually do something cool. The vast majority of pot buster damage was in the buster, the coolest part was spending 25% meter for strong oki (Which he easily built). If you want to spend 50 heat you can already combo from 360B (and meterless on half the cast) The more I talk about how 360A does everything already the more I want it to be buffed or unnerfed at least. It does one of the 3 important things 720 does. It really really does not replace the threat. (If we have to talk about the other options terrabreak should obviously not have a ton of invincivility because it has combo implications, maybe guard break implications, and MTW is already a reversal.)

360A also helps when they are plus on block and both can be jumped. IB nerf +2 frame buff=CS1 360B, which I liked but hardly stopped people from walking all over us. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a buff, but I am saying that you're claiming it will do something that I don't think it would.

What situations would 360B be used as an actual punish that 360A could not? I freely admit I might be lacking in imagination, but I'd like to hear one since this is the third time I'm calling people out on this idea. In the case of staggering strings 360A would be (and IS) usable at Far more distances because it is slower, and it would be jumpable only in the same way 360B would be. It's what I do when people stagger strings, since they leave a big gap and then start another block string, which odds are by the end you Won't be able to "punish" with 360B. So please, an example of something meaningful a 4 frame throw would do for us, that 360A does not already do, because I'm very suspicious of this idea. Edit: Some math IB nerf -2 frames, 360B buff +2 frames=CS1

Well then applying that idea, in what situations do people attack while in throw range in a way that not only doesn't lead to a block string, but leaves them -4? In my experience they are either too far away or one of us is blocking a string/mix up. People already watch their spacing, but because we can't do anything about it if they do. Since within a block string, the majority of the time, 360A would be able to do the job (The removed 720 of course would be far better at it), and further able to do it when a 4 frame throw could not. Within a block string, you'd just get your old IB 360B points back. This isn't street fighter, it isn't even guilty gear. The frame data is really incompatible to the point where stolen ideas need a Lot of tweaking to cross games. Also I want to say this because I forgot to a while ago, I like the autoarmor on MTW, I'd rather have enough autoguard to plow through things than to have enough invincibility to just get started. Because the reason we Can plow through things is because it is armor, there's no what they'd give us a massively invincible move. The armor frequently can't be rapided out of too.

I disagree, in any throw situation you can't react to the throw, so you psychic jump/reversal/backdash/whatever. For them to be caught by an early active frame they would have to have been Surprised by it, but were going to jump sometime after it goes active. When the heck is that happening?

Why do people keep suggesting a 4 frame throw? What exactly can that do that 360A can't do? Edit: Besides screw up the timing for a lot of easy tick throws by being purpling.

I had assumed that was the situation we were talking about. Since that's the situation that can be forced and telegraphs the mix up to encourage a timely tech. I've almost never seen someone quick tech a random 5D, that somehow normal hit someone with it's shitty mag, long start up and near inability to be comboed into. If you hit them out of something and it's not a counterhit, odds are it was a movement option that put them airborn. (Like seriously, what is the opponent doing standing there 24 frames without blocking, jumping, attacking, or backdashing?). I see a lot of blue beats when it Does hit too (Maybe because someone being absent minded enough to get hit by that is also not the sharpest on teching 1st frame possible), but that's just my experience. It's not like I've seen every tager vid out there. It doesn't seem like it is worth even thinking about to me though. The RC tech trap would be especially wasteful (And more difficult to time on top of that) too, since the RC would give you a combo with pretty good damage. if you waited just a little for the late mag pull you might be able to combo from pretty far away too.

That's a very bad idea because they can vary the tech timing quite a lot, and you're looking for a 3 frame window. That's like FRCing your Opponents moves. It would take a fair amount of effort to be able to do it right for the earliest possible tech and the counter is as easy as waiting 3 or more frames since you Can't throw it on reaction. And 3 frames is short enough that if the guy wasn't timing it right or mashing hard enough he would counter your timing by accident. 5D 22Dwhiff gets your something like +4 though at the end of the stagger recovery, and no purple throws on early techs, if you're going to go ahead and assume that anyway. There's more lenience with timing and you're not blowing 50 meter on a gimmick. In this case if their timing was a couple frames off or they didn't mash perfectly, instead of wasting 50 meter you have a shot at hitting the sweet spot, and even if it was so off that both would purple throw, one of them saves 50 heat.

Not really, it's more of an issue of whatever go to move they have usually being faster and better though, rather than us being too far away. In your analysis though, 5A is a safer and usually better option than BC in those situations. Also on all of the talk of the proration build up and them recovering super fast at the 5A, that would make a strong tick throw if they just un nerf 5A so we can cancel it into throws again.