FlyingVe

Reverse beats are nice an all, but the pushback on many of Tagers moves means that might do more harm than good, especially without a good option to reset your pressure. Since were tossing around giggle-y ideas, I want his overhead to be more like bangs, in that it stops jumpouts. That combined with 4D seems okay.

Thank you for that, that was a great read and is definitely more modern than SJ's list from half a year ago. My only edit (sorry for nitpicking), is that Mu's max damage is 7.2k, which comes from her fatals, and she can easily hit 6K with an explosion setup or good hit near the corner. Note, the 7.2k is a standard punish for lots of moves.

I added stuff in my previous post. All pretty common knowledge though.

Haven't started on Jin yet. A combination of being busy and lazyness. Do you have any idea how we'll change threads? Should I just forward to Arginor? Edit: Random thought's on the Noel matchup. -Noel is really fast and it makes it more difficult to zone her with steins. So don't go overboard with placing them because Noel can rip across the screen and tag you before they fire. -Noel's 2D beats almost all of your ground normals. As a result I don't do alot of frame traps. -Your standard answer to her drive should either be DP, or IB>Backdash>FC6C sometimes you don't even need the IB. Luna gave me some stuff I'll try to find it and forward it.

Fixed now. Okay then. Thanks.

Because it's easier to land more combos if the other guy doesn't kill you in 2 (once again Fuck you Makoto and Noel). Getting zoned will always be Tagers enemy, in fact that's how you play against grapplers.

Nope: Tager hate list: Put down controller tier: Mu, Valk, Hazama, Lambda, Carl, Arakune Probably put down controller tier: Tao, Bang, Litchi, Makoto, Hakumen. Might as well hold the controller tier: Jin, Ragna Hurray it's worth trying tier: Tsubaki, Noel Rachel tier: Rachel This list was composed with lots of salt so take a grain when you read it. If you disagree I don't care. Tager hate aside, what's going on at 6:30? Also, I would also, want to read LK's opinion on character strengths. Perfect balance is impossible, and would probably be boring, all I think we can ask for is that every character have a reasonable chance to win in most matchups. Edit: Forgot Haku.

@AXIS: exactly! You get it (I think)! I want to address the lifebar comment (differently than Osuna, who is also correct). Damage is ALWAYS relative to the rest of the cast. Here's why. Your lifebar is a tool, just like all your other moves and abilities. The lifebar represents the amount of times you are allowed to guess (modified by you opponents damage output), and you combo damage represents the amount of times you have to guess right to win (modified by your opponents lifebar). Therefore, the rest of the cast doing less damage, does mean Tager's damage is better, because he will get more times to guess correctly. With regards to mobility, nobody wants or expects Tager to be zipping around the screen like the other cast members, but there is alot of stuff that Tager HAS to deal with as a result of not having ANY mobility options. My personal favorite of which are Kyle's PinkThrow>j5AAAAA>Clap (only inescapable with Tager), and Mu doing Mu stuff. With regards to Tager's mixup, the reason Tager is still oodles above his CT iteration (despite being the worst character still), is that e can guess right, and he will win if he guesses right (CT Tager could guess right and still lose). But there is still a big problem with his mix-ups and that is how self destructive and weak they are. Some people have joked that Tager mixups are 30/70 in their favor, this means that not only are they easy to get out of, but often Tager will get hurt more for attempting them than for landing them (the definition of hurt does not only mean damage). In addition, Tager can only guess one thing. For example, if Tager goes for a command grab, it loses to jump, reversal, and backdash; If Tager guess backdash, it loses to mashes(sometimes), jumps, and reversals; and so on and so forth. An example of this done better would be Abel in SF4 (sorry for the SF reference). After his step kick he can cr.lk+cr.lp~cr.hk>cr.lk. This will stop backdashes, jumps, mash attempts (including throw break), prevent counter throw attempts (if your timing is off), and set them up for another mixup. Tager has nothing like this. In addition, I am of the opinion, that the USUAL reward for guessing right against the grappler, is simply to escape, not get a punish combo.

SoD means sword of decimation (63214C) WoD was probably a typo. Sometimes you also see D-wall which usually refers to this zoning pattern: 2D>5D>j4D>j5D As for your question, personally that's just something I feel out. The best place's to try that are dependent on alot of things. A simple answer is don't do charged zoning unless you're at full screen or as part of a setup.

Atomic collider is not anti-jump. Otherwise, we can make lists of a bunch of specific things, it all boils down to two things, Tager needs better moves (normals and specials), and better mobility. I know that encompasses most of the character, but that's kinda the reality.

<insert character here> + Breathless = win? Yep, sounds about right...

Actually, in CS2 his damage is relatively high. Most characters can't do that kind of damage without the corner (and even then). However, he gets very low damage off several moves (like 5A) but gets mag and gadget (maybe). In a game where lots of midscreen stuff is barely cracking 2k (Fuck you makoto and Noel), his CS1 damage doesn't look as crummy as it used to. Tager doesn't need an amazing anti-air so much as he needs a way to get people to stop jumping. Fast normals and lows hit people when they push up, or out of jump start-up. Another problem Tager has, is that, even if he hits someone out of jump startup with 5A, he can't combo... at all. Also, the new air unblockables do alot to solve this problem, but Tagers normals are too slow to take advantage of it like other characters. My personal opinion on Tager vs Zoners, is that, that matchup has to suck (unfortunately, BB characters have alot of good zoning tools). If he had the tools to easily close the gap on keep-away characters that would be broke as hell against alot of other characters. Instead, his reward for getting in should be better. (Projectile invulnerable spark just insure the move does what it supposed to fucking do in the first place). I don't think more reward means more damage, but instead just having a better up close game. Another idea I've heard would be to make gadget like Ragna's 22C, where you had time to tag them during stagger recovery (which would force a block).

Tager is always going to lose to zoners, the shame is that once Tager gets in, he isn't all that great. Plenty of characters beat him at HIS idea range. Somebody (Henkai) on DL once said that a grappler should be "The king fucking shit of that range" and I think he's right. Speeding up his normals would strengthen his frame traps and help train people not to jump (at which point you can grab they punk ass). In addition, with a 5F 5A frame traps, pressure, and oki get much stronger. Things like Gadget Finger, A/Bsledge, 2B, etc... suddenly have 2 less frames of leeway (assuming you used the 5A). Edit: I really should be saying 'faster normals' instead of 5A, but that move stands out as being his fastest move (save 720C and 360B) and it's painfully slow. My opinion.

I don't think the problem with this situation is spark being fast. A grappler should have some faster moves. I still say make 5A 5f.

Another option would be to give Spark some kind of crazy startup, like 5 frames or something. Sure that's mad powerful, but it prorates pretty bad and you only get one. Plus it would make it more useful in other match-ups. Also, the problem with CS2 6A as an anti-air is that it doesn't have super armor during the active frames, so you couldn't release the 6A until after they contacted you. Then 6A is so slow they'd just punch you out of it. Super armor 6A is for baiting slow stuff and reversals, and that's about it. Also, Mu did lose damage and her oki of normal hits (you could lock Tager down with it). But her keep-away got big buffs, and that was always the problem with the matchup.

@Darlos:You mean like a double jump? or other mobility option? Tager doesn't need a way to straight up smash someone for using projectiles, just a way to avoid them or at least make them more deliberate in using them. Projectile invulnerable Spark bolt is another idea I've heard. @Nobus: in SSF4 alot of the strength of the grapples comes from oki. Oki in BB is different and prevents that from working so well. Also, Abel isn't really a pure grappler. But yeah, Tager's normals are pretty ass, and he needs them to be better to really be respected.

My list is almost straight from pot: Double Jump Faster jabs and lows faster jump (he's already huge, he doesn't need a slow as sin jump too)

Tager always gets to rape while everybody else is figuring stuff out. To be fair, Tager in CS1 and CS2 is still, on the low side of okay. It's not like CT where everybody raped him for free. Still, he has so many bad matchups that your chances of winning a tournament with him are quite low. Arakune, Lambda, Mu, Valk, Hazama, Carl, these matchups are shitty by design unless something major changes in the game. (Double jump please )