FlyingVe

Blue is always the best.

Axis is right though, because of the push back, punishing could be hard to impossible for alot of characters. Not all, but many.

You can't special cancel 3C unless that changed for CS2? Also, 4D is still 0+, and since it's easy to hit meaty with mag pull, it's not bad. But the range is bad and tagers normals are so bad, an SD of +1 doesn't mean what it should.

Another thought: After more videos and thinking, the buff to the sledge followup (armor, forward movement, speed, the ability to combo off it), might be a really good buff. Take the lambda matchup for example, she's in that annoying spot just outside sledge range where you can't do shit. Now, if you sledge, and she dashes in to punish you, you can still threaten with hammer. And if she's scared of hammer you can do something else. Also, you can surprise sledge from further away. Not great, but once again, its another option, and might force the opponent to think.

Not necessarily, he really just needs more options. The ones he has are so bad they don't even really count.

You can do safe pressure, the issues start when he tries to reset the pressure. Without a dash, he has to rely on his moves, and they are mad risky. Hell, ArkSys went out of the way to make sure you couldn't use Asledge for that, and that wouldn't have even been that good...

Well what we got is -6, so... fuck...

I'm hype for CS2 Tager. He still sucks, but I feel he actually has a chance most of the time now.

I can...

Also, you don''t see 6A alot in vids outside of combos, so by extension you don't see 6A>4D either.

Lol at people complaining about CT Tager. Still, a buff is a buff, though I never had any issues with how long CS1 mag lasted.

Well, all of those are good in their own right , if you must get plow through something, there is no better move than C.ID, even with it's nerfs. A close might be Makoto's as it can lead to okay damage in certain situations, but it lacks invulnerability, range, active frames, and speed over C.ID. Also, Haz 214D~B, Haku 2147B, and jin 623B are not really reversals, just attacks with invulnerability.

Heck, C.ID is still far and away the best DP in the game. But now people might have to think slightly more about using it, which I for one, am okay with.

It's been talked about in the other boards, but the nerf to C.ID's active frames is also pretty significant. Most notably against Tager, as he can now backdash C.ID.

At the top of my post there's a link to the translation. (Quoted from Cor). You can see for yourself.

We know the start up in CS2, but as for CS1... we'd just be guessing, which I why I didn't list them in the changes, you cant know if it changed if you don't know what it was in the first place.

It's hitbox extends past the hurtbox too (unlike Ragna's). Ragna's 5B has always been overrated despite still being a great normal.

Here are the changes. Note that there might be some inaccuracies and many nerfs/buffs may not be listed as we never had true frame data in the first place. 5A: *none* 5B: p1= 90>100 5C: startup= 14>12 p2= 90>94 SD= -9>-4 2A: *none* 2B: startup= 10>8 SD = +1>+/-0 p1= 85>80 2C: startup= 16>14 SD= -20>-13 p2= 88>91 6A: p1= 75>80 6B: SD= -3>-1 p1= 90>70 p2= 91>94 60% repeat proration 6C: SD= -26>-27 p1= 90>100 p2= 95>96 3C: SD= -16>-10 p1= 100>90 Jump Cancelable on hit or block jA: p1= 80>90 jB: ???? jC: ???? j2C: ???? Throw: damage= 1000>700 p1= 100>90 *p2= 60>100,55 Back Throw: damage= 1000>700 p1= 100>90 *p2= 60>100,55 Air Throw: p2= 60>100,55 236A: startup= 31->23 damage= 400x3>400x5 *p1= .04>60 *p2= 1>60 j236A: startup= 31->23 damage= 400x3>400x5 *p1= .04>60 *p2= 1>60 214D: SD= 38>40 236D: damage= 800>500 623C: SD= -20>-27 63214C(lvl1): *none* 63214C(lvl2): *none* 63214C(lvl3): ???? 63214C(lvl4): SD= +10>+7 632146C: startup= 14>5+5 632146D: ???? Credit to KayEff and the dustloop translation team, and Cor for the link.

Sure. SD or frame advantage is calculated assuming the move hits on the first active frame. So, if you were to only make contact with the final active frame, you would start recovering sooner while the enemy would be beginning his guard stun later, actively giving you more frame advantage. In the past DS only had 3 active frames, so it was hard to hit meaty with it, but 12 is alot, this is probably the main reason why you see everyone use it as for oki so often now as that's the situation where hitting meaty is easiest, in addition to stopping role and being safe. Math wise, if you hit on frame 2, it would have one more frame of advantage than the default, so, +4. In my example, hitting with the middle of the move, or frame 6, it would be +9. Of course hitting meaty with the move in situations outside of oki is tricky in this game.

Am I the only one that noticed DS now has 12 active frames? Now I know why players are using it as a meaty so much. In addition to stopping roles and comboing on normal hit, every frame more meaty it hits makes that +3 even bigger. Even if you hit with the middle of it, thats +9. Edit: Also, BE is +1, could be semi-viable as an approach. Chance your timing and trajectory. Probably useful against the zoners.

SD assumes the move connects on the first active frame, and for air moves at the lowest possible altitude. This is why Tager's j2C is listed as -2, but you can still punish it in an actual match (because it usually isn't done at the lowest possible height), this also means projectiles generate more frame advantage the further they get to travel (effectively).

The math on DS has didn't add up correctly in the CS1 mook either, curious.

Well, I strongly advise running away in the makoto matchup, at least when the player knows how to approach Mu, (It didn't look like shadowblade did). The biggest thing I noticed is hitconfirming your jC. Alot of the hits Mu is gonna get come from jC hits, be ready to confirm it: Air CH jC> Dash6A>... Air jC>j2C>Dash2B>... Ground jC> Dash2B>...

Tagers fasters 360 is 360B and it starts up in 6 frames, so 6B is safe against that too.

The 2A>1A+C(mash) OS to pick up tech rolls doesn't work in CS1 because 2A>2C doesn't work. It works in CS2, Mu and Makoto really abuse this OS. If you remember that H.H. combo vid, how he always mashed 2A and confirmed the 2A into 2C on the first hit, he was demonstrating the OS.