Klaige

If you read my whole posts..and his.. you wouldn't even need to post this.

What I am "complaining" about is the idea of standardizing moves that would cause gameplay to stagnate. Now perhaps you just mis-worded your original idea, or you're backtracking now but essentially what you said earlier was that moves/supers/combos should have similar motions and inputs. This would destroy the individualization of the characters in guilty gear. Their unique mechanics are what give them distinct styles. A character like Eddie would be impossible without the unique controls he has with using negative edges to control the shadow. The specific example i gave with venom, is that venom is a charged based character capable of long and potent guard strings and mixups. If he did not use charge motions his gameplay would become broken due to the restrictions being removed from his charge buffers. You have since mentioned that this restrictions are nessecary and you are correct in that statement. Standardizing combos would be even worse. Nobody wants every character to play the same. Universal combo into launcher into air combo is boring, and doesn't give characters any identity. You will find that very few characters in guilty gear combo like this, and that is a major part of the appeal. At this point however I have to say the thing that really bothers me is this: How can you possibly try to discuss the theory behind the design of the game if you have no experience what-so-ever in it's practice? It sounds to me that you are more interested in the theory of basic design for fighting games. While that is all well and good, how can you try to call for a design change to make guilty gear "more user friendly" when you don't care about, nor play the game. Even the term "theory-fighter" which many people would consider a dirty word, actually employs the use of experiences and playing the game. What you are doing here isn't even theory, it's just a blatant guess at fixing one game based on the entire genre in general. A major part of gears appeal is that it isn't like every fighting game out there. It's full of unique mechanics, aspects, and quirks that allow it to stand out. What you are proposing with more standardization is again what good players in gear don't want to see: dumbing and simplifying it down. I already stated that guilty gear is a game that is at it's best and in the end was designed for high level play between two opponents that are relatively equal in skill. That is where the game thrives and shines as an extremely well done fighter. You seem to think that motions and combos outside the norm are just arbitrary difficulty barriers that prevent new players from getting better at the game. If the designers made moves difficult just to do something different i would agree with you, but again the inputs and styles used for these characters are there to make them more unique and to give the game more depth. Something you can't really understand since, you know, you don't actually play the game. The handicap issue i already explained. It's not needed for casual because the players themselves can determine how they want to play. If one player is better and wants another to get into the game, they are probably going to attempt to teach the other player what is going on, why certain actions cause certain results, and give the player an idea of to improve and get better. You ask why someone who is "good" at one game would ever start playing another game if they know they are likely to get crushed while they learn. Well any player that is "good" at a fighting game had to take their lumps to get good at it in the first place. Anyone who has an understanding of playing fighters competitively knows that when you jump into a new game, you will take some beatings as you learn. There is no reason to have an overly complex handicap mode for these players. In contrast for players who just want to tinker around or play the game extremely casually, there's really no need for anything beyond a basic damage modifier. They aren't interested in improving or playing competitively. When people are discussing making gear more user friendly, in this thread that is, they are basically saying "how can we get people to give this game a fair shake without feeling overwhelmed, so they potentially become a player in the community" a handicap mode does not serve any purpose to meet this end. Again if you give someone a crutch in guilty gear and they start to lean on it, they are unlikely to ever improve and be able to succeed in a tournament setting. And in the end, that is the kind of result we are discussing here: How do we get more players to feel comfortable learning guilty gear so they can play it long enough to possibly join a community of higher level players. I fully respect your interest in game design as a whole, I think that's something a lot of gamers should take an interest in and be willing to critique. But at the same time, using design theory in a game you don't play doesn't really get you very far, and causes gross generalizations on the subject at hand. Buckle- care to give examples. Notice i said learning the FRC, not learning something that goes on top of it (I.E. learning how to air dash after chemical love FRC).

Ok this first point is flat out silly. You think giving everyone a hadou motion and making the cast more similar is a GOOD thing for the game? What a great plan, let's let venom do carcass raid/stinger aim with 236 motions, that wouldn't be broken or ruin the character at all. The uniqueness in the characters is what makes them fun, and what gives the game more depth. I don't want a game where i learn to do K, S, H, jc, S, S, 236H and it just is the BnB for every character. That's a horrible design choice in every facet. A handicap isn't a needed option. If you are playing for competitive natures (tournies, money matches, etc.) the game has to be standardized, there's no need for this. If you're playing casually you just play, theres no need for a handicap mode, it does nothing worthwhile for either player. If someone is learning, then teach them as you play, just giving them a handicap doesn't make them better. If anything it will make them worse because the consequences for mistakes will start to lose their meaning. If you choose to learn a new fighting game, you are choosing to take it on the chin from experienced players while you learn the game, that's just part of competitive fighters. There is no way to skip this. I think you have some jaded views on execution and general hurdles for new players. BB has a few more system parts than say SF, but that doesn't make it more complicated by default. Anytime someone brand new to a game starts playing, they are going to be a little loss. No one picks up a new game and just instantly knows how to play it. BB is not difficult to pick up and do some basics with, it's very friendly to learning a simple thing like small combos, supers, and basic defense. Standardizing a game for tournament format (damage levels, speed, rounds, time, etc) is always a good idea. Standardizing the gameplay itself by dumbing down characters and options is the single worst thing you could ever do to a game. Depth is what makes guilty gear a great game, taking a step back from that is not the answer to improving the game. Sacrificing the high level play for entry level players defeats the purpose of a game that was born and bred for competitive balance.

It's not the game that needs changing, it's simply the learning process. There's nothing that insanely difficult in guilty gear to learn for applying in practical match purposes. FRC's are not overly difficult execution, they are muscle memory. You can get good at them the same way you get good at shooting free throws in basketball, or playing a musical instrument with a lot of keys. Put a little time and embed the execution into your muscles, it's not that difficult. There's no FRC in the game you can't get down rather consistently inside 30 minutes of practice. Execution in guilty gear isn't as hard as some people like to think. My execution sucks shit through a straw, and I manage to hit what I want a lot more often than I drop it. The real "difficulty" in learning guilty gear comes from the need to experience various situations and various matchups. Learning combos, setups, okizeme, and zoning games: that's not insanely difficult or time consuming, it requires a little dedication in training mode. Even something as small as 20-30 minutes 4 or 5 days a week would vastly improve people's execution if they just work on it with some discipline. Guilty Gear is a game that is very rewarding, but that's only really noticed in 2 situations: A. When it's played by 2 opponents with very close relative knowledge, skill, and grasp of the game. B. When it's played at extremely high level (Major tournaments, Evo, SBO) So how do we achieve this stage in the game for more players? One way has already been answered: A tutorial mode. A good tutorial mode will do a few different things for a newer player. It would properly lead them step by step along the path to getting better and understanding the game as a whole. This can be execution, understand the system, explaining concepts like invulnerability to strikes or throws, properties of IB/FD/ etc. Guilty gear has a lot of working cogs in it's game system. It's a lot for someone to grasp, but anyone can learn if they have something guiding the way and they actually care to walk down the path a little further. A good tutorial will also know how to "dangle the carrot" and give a player learning glimpses at what lies down the road when they improve. Showing the application of a good mixup, or hitting a very useful combo, or showing rewards of properly instant blocking a string. You can't just put someone at the starting block, and say "somewhere over there, very far away is the finish line, now start running". For a tutorial to be effective it has to show you not only where to go, but what rewards lie ahead when you get there. The other side to this, is matchups and situational experience. Sadly no tutorial is going to be able to do this, it would take far too many resources to execute properly and besides the point is learning how to play against other living breathing humans. Which leads to the other "improvement" needed for guilty gear. It's been mentioned many times before: Online play. One of the reasons many players don't go far with gear is because the player base is too spread out to really enjoy it. You are only as good as your competition, and if your only competition is a guy who just likes to pick ky and shoot fireballs, your interest in the game is destined to have a short lifespan. I still am not a huge fan of Blazblue, but there is no denying what so ever that it's solid base for online play has allowed it to amass a very sizable player base in comparison. One where players who may have struggled in guilty gear, have been able to see some success because of their ability to learn multiple matchups and multiple situations. Knowledge as they say, is power: That is multiplied 10 fold in a competitive fighting game. Give a mediocre player access to multiple matchups and a chance to experience a situation that would otherwise befuddle him in a tournament setting due to lack of exposure, and you may find a player who becomes solid and able to deal with that same situation come tourney time. Basically Gear doesn't need an engine change or to be dumbed down. It's fine the way it is aside from the occassional tweak between versions (increased pushback, removing FDC and option select, etc.). What gear needs is the ability to help players wade into it's very large pool instead of being tossed into the deep end with no life preserver (a tutorial). And the ability to expose players to as many situations and matchups as possible so that they might actually learn more about the game as they play it (online play). My two cents. Sadly we won't be seeing either anytime soon.

Agreed....when you have enough to bring with you to really enjoy it.

considering that when gear was a main game we barely scored a 100+, im not spending the loot to come to evo for it to be a side game with maybe 50. Not that i don't love seeing the west coast players, but that's just too much money to justify a trip for a side tourney of the game i really care about.

A tourney with Blunts is a tourney for Men. Faustings just got more hype.

Keep in mind on an attack like 6S that is jump cancel-able you can buffer the IAD motion, because it will act as the jump-cancel itself when you do so. 6S, IAD, J.H is a great mixup. You have retarded options, especially in the corner. After the J.H you can do any of the following for high low mixup. Delayed Orb. Land 2S Land P stomp (land into overhead screws with people, even if blocked, you are even at worst) Land Orb (shenanigans) Land Tick throw Even if they block you'll get a pressure string out of the deal, and pretty much no one has reliable option out of it if you time the 6S and the IAD properly. Obviously there is room for IB into DP or something risky of that nature, but this string really is awesome and it's worth your time to learn. You'd be amazed how hard it is to block a high low 50 50 in the corner, with shitsu cover.

Thanks fellas.

Anyone else notice that in none of the videos that feature Jin has the sound of people trying to mash out of Freeze status. Did they just eliminate the sound, or is it no longer required to mash out of moves that freeze? Or am I just being retarded and japanese players don't bother mashing because they know Good players will either finish the combo or go for a reset?

Blazblue results: 20 entries 1 Cue 2 Dekline 3 izzy 4 Klaige 5 Vamperial 5 Axiom 7 GiovanniSama 7 EvilZangief 9 Emilio Esteves 9 Yulai 9 keela 9 Tomas 13 Ngame3k 13 Lucymono 13 d-ra 13 Z0n1c 17 Hogosha 17 Kaytrim 17 Dracula-X 17 echo Guilty Gear Results: 17 entries 1 Cue 2 Jamarvelous 3 Klaige 4 izzy 5 shogun 17 5 zero 7 axiom 7 keela 9 lucymono 9 Evilzangief 9 KatraQueyous 9 Dracula-X 13 Z0n1c 13 Crimson Skull 13 songo 13 d-ra 17 Matt

Hey you know what hilarious? Nas and all his faggotry. If you see him, punch him, and laugh, i'll give you a shiny 10 spot at the next tourney i see you at. For reals!!!! LOL nas, you dumb faggot.

At the holiday inn, however i have my one allowed roomate: my wife Lol she's really cool actually so i'll have casual in the room at least.

Also Mike when we money match, If i win I demand you pay me in YEN! you heard me!!! Faustings is gonna be the tightest.

Good shit mike. I'll have a TV and a PS2 with gear there without a doubt.

Mike how long are we looking at for hotel info. Being news years weekend that shit will book up in a hurry, I've found the closest ones to the venue but i assume we all wanna try to get in the same one for casual/chilling purposes. Can't wait, last year was beast.

You know I'll be there Mike. Travis Nible West Des Moines, Iowa GG Singles/Teams BB Singles/Teams

Keep in mind that just doing a jump install isn't enough to do a lot of those combo's, you have to perform a momentum preserved jump cancel (also referred to as normal jump canceling) with the install to get those longer combos after the double jump. It's kind of convoluted and not nearly as useful as it was in slash, so i'd recommend working on basic combos more and worrying about these tactics later on. You'll get much more use out of learning how to do basic jump combos that can knockdown with a low orb or low J.HS to go with basic FB Rin combos.

Yes you can be air thrown out of p stomp because anji is considered airborn.

Cuz baiken obviously needs loads of buffs.......

I like the Anji buffs, really intelligent choices, I'd probably add one or two from this list: A. Butterfly goes back to Slash recovery and FB butterfly gets regular AC butterfly recovery. (1 frame less each). B. Make orb knock down again at all heights. (Or give it an FRC point) C. Either return 5H or 6H to slash status, both is prolly too much. I'd honestly prefer 5H i think. I'd take one or two of these even with a nerf or too. Maybe make FB Rin non overhead and not as much frame advantage or something. I'd like em all but that's greedy.

I will say i am looking forward to seeing this years SBO vids, it does sound like the game is doing a real good job of not getting spread further apart in terms of the tiers. I think Dizzy is probably explained by the fact that she is very popular in Japan and that again she is one of those characters that gets much stronger in the team format where you can try to pick and choose your battles to an extent.

The throw game is total garbage. They have 7 frames of start up, jumps are 3-4 frames, jabs are 5-6, this is simple fundamentals, it's a horrible design choice. On top of it they make throws techable even if your a mouth breather with horrid reaction time. And they do this to compensate for the lazy design choice of "well lets let everyone combo into throws, but add a huge tech window...oo but lets make them never ever prorate" Wanna shut down throws in this game, hold up back. Hell wanna shut down the average characters rush down? Hold down back, react to slow ass overheads, and jump away at your leisure. If your feeling particuarly lazy, just hold barrier and mash on IB, another brilliant mechanic by the way. The game is linear as hell and a lot of the system mechanics make no sense. IB is way too strong, jumping is way too strong, negative penalty and burst mechanics are batshit stupid. These aren't hard things to understand here. And the tiers, the top has WAY more things wrong with it than the bottom. I don't know how anyone could possibly fight a good Arakune, Rachel, or Nu and after the match was over even consider saying "well i had a fair shot to win that" with a straight face. Blazblue rewards stagnate boring zoning more than anything. It's not even good intelligent zoning where you have to be a great playing like ST Dhalsim for example, it's just a simple If A then B process that lets you destroy the opposition if they don't get lucky on taking some massive massive risks. Again, i don't even know why i have to repeat this, most of this crap is obvious to good players anyway.