Two opposing articles on Xrd

[nilcam]

Here is what I took from these articles: "Let me start by saying, as I always do: Play what you enjoy. If you like a game then great!" - Mike Z

Everything else is just opinion...personally I love playing Xrd.

For the purpose of this discussion: Sirlin states his opinions as facts. I don't agree with this.

Also, in general, Sirlin and Mike Z have alot in common when it comes to game design and balancing.

 

Both are interesting articles. I'm more positive on the game than Mike Z and find my opinion to be closer to Sirlin.

 

I don't think Sirlin meant to insinuate that everything was factual. The fact that this is an opinion piece on a blog overrides that and makes it unnecessary for him to add phrases such as in my opinion; the fact that he's writing it communicates that to the reader. Looks like I got ninja'd on this point.

[OP8]

I agree.  Though generally persuasive writing avoids things like "my opinion is..." because it is assumed that the opinion expressed by the author is their own.

 

 

You are correct, sir. I was referring to his works as a whole, and not the piece you were referring to. My mistake.

[MoralHazardPay]

YRCs are easy to fix; the burst mechanic just puts the player in "burst-stun" which makes any RC into a RRC or PRC. Command throw RCs are RRC only like a DP. Other than that, their only real disagreements seem to be on the simplification of the game, and on how much they hate optionselects (quite a bit vs. a million burning suns).

[redsilversnake]

The JI comment would seem more valid if JI were more prevalent, but I have yet to see instances where JI is really necessary at high level play for most characters in Xrd, with the exception of Chipp (and Chipp is supposed to be hard anyway).

I wouldn't say necessary, but for one example, I've seen Sol players take advantage of it for certain midscreen combos.

Other than that, you pretty much said most of what I feel better than I think I could (though I disagree about unblockables; I kind of agree with Mike that the kind Zato has shouldn't be in the game. I also think you oversimplify how the balance is, but that's a different topic). I think he stretched a bit too much to make his case, and his argument falls flat in part because of that.

[Margatroid]

Mike Z is definitely right about some things in the department of not making the right stuff easier. Like Ramlethal's "green Dauro," for example. That is some stupid nonsense that the game makes no effort to explain to new players, and in her challenge mode it's practically impossible to decipher how it's done from the obtuse notation that is given. And even if you do manage to perform the move, there is zero indication given as to how it's different from the regular version. Everything about it is unnecessarily obscure. If they're trying to make the game as friendly to new players as SF4, they still have a long way to go.

[MasamuneXGP]

I agree with most of Mike Z's points, although I don't think any of them are major enough to make Xrd a bad game.  But I do hope they're fixed in future versions.

 

* YRCs: I love the new cancel system very much, but I do agree the burst-baiting option select is dumb.  Although this wouldn't cover all of Mike Z's complaints, I think a large portion of them would be alleviated by the simple tweak of making red cancels happen while the opponent is blue-bursting.  I hope they do this.

* Easier motions: What I would really like is for the game to have a less strict input parser.  If 426 counted as a half roll, I'd drop a LOT fewer combos.

* Negative-edge: Agreed, that was useful.  Kind of goes along with easier inputs.

* Jump Install: Agreed, again goes along with easier inputs.

* Unblockables: Meh, I could take them or leave them.

* Throw techs: These were really important and I really hope they're re-added.

* Rollback netcode: THIS.  SO MUCH THIS.  There is NO EXCUSE for not having it.  Even if you live in Japan and only get 2F of lag, THAT IS TWO FRAMES TOO MANY for a game like Guilty Gear.  I really have to wonder if ArcSys even *knows* about rollback.  I really hope that we can rally and demand this from ArcSys for the next version.

* Hell Fire: I like it.  It allows for big comebacks.  But as others have said, it's ultimately not that important.

* Danger Time: Agreed, it's a dumb mechanic that should be removed.

* Reloading on "Retry": Yeah, seriously, what were they thinking?

* Skipping Cinematics: No.  I have seen Heavenly Potemkin Buster a great many times now, and I cannot see it getting old, ever.  It is awesome and whoever lands it *deserves* that extra three seconds of gloating.

 

 

 

 

[destruction_adv]

Mike Z is definitely right about some things in the department of not making the right stuff easier. Like Ramlethal's "green Dauro," for example. That is some stupid nonsense that the game makes no effort to explain to new players, and in her challenge mode it's practically impossible to decipher how it's done from the obtuse notation that is given. And even if you do manage to perform the move, there is zero indication given as to how it's different from the regular version. Everything about it is unnecessarily obscure. If they're trying to make the game as friendly to new players as SF4, they still have a long way to go.

Huh? The game does tell you how to do Green Daruo it has in (press 3 and P at the same time) next to the move which is about as simple as you can make it. Also I find the zero indication not to be much of an issue since that's like complaining the game doesn't tell us the difference between HS and S VVs or VTs. I mean you can see that one version of VV goes higher but that doesn't tell you much else and if you mention that Green Daruo is...well green so you know there is SOME difference.

[Margatroid]

you mention that Green Daruo is...well green so you know there is SOME difference.

 

lol, you're comparing a totally random green-colored version of a brand new special move on a new character to the difference between S and HS versions of specials that have extremely obvious differences in range? Green Dauro is completely indistinguishable from the normal version at first glance, other than its color.

Also, the notation the game gives for doing the move is like "Dragon Punch P (down-forward P)." I guess it's a difficult thing to transcribe, but that isn't exactly clear, especially not to new players. Everything about Green Dauro is a textbook example of the obscure nature of complicated fighting games and the jargon they employ. And it could be easily remedied.

[TheRealBobMan]

Hm... it's dumb, but I guess they went with that for thematic reasons.  They can't use S version + H version because those are sword buttons.  The move isn't a kick, so that leaves punch.  She already has her projectile as 214... I don't know if it'd be more annoying to have the same move as 236P / 623P for different versions, or have it this way.

[Margatroid]

Yeah, I guess that's a good point. In case you can't tell, I still have no idea what the green version does myself. And I've been playing Guilty Gear for 12 years.

[MoralHazardPay]

I agree with most of Mike Z's points, although I don't think any of them are major enough to make Xrd a bad game.  But I do hope they're fixed in future versions.

 

* YRCs: I love the new cancel system very much, but I do agree the burst-baiting option select is dumb.  Although this wouldn't cover all of Mike Z's complaints, I think a large portion of them would be alleviated by the simple tweak of making red cancels happen while the opponent is blue-bursting.  I hope they do this.

* Easier motions: What I would really like is for the game to have a less strict input parser.  If 426 counted as a half roll, I'd drop a LOT fewer combos.

* Negative-edge: Agreed, that was useful.  Kind of goes along with easier inputs.

* Jump Install: Agreed, again goes along with easier inputs.

* Unblockables: Meh, I could take them or leave them.

* Throw techs: These were really important and I really hope they're re-added.

* Rollback netcode: THIS.  SO MUCH THIS.  There is NO EXCUSE for not having it.  Even if you live in Japan and only get 2F of lag, THAT IS TWO FRAMES TOO MANY for a game like Guilty Gear.  I really have to wonder if ArcSys even *knows* about rollback.  I really hope that we can rally and demand this from ArcSys for the next version.

* Hell Fire: I like it.  It allows for big comebacks.  But as others have said, it's ultimately not that important.

* Danger Time: Agreed, it's a dumb mechanic that should be removed.

* Reloading on "Retry": Yeah, seriously, what were they thinking?

* Skipping Cinematics: No.  I have seen Heavenly Potemkin Buster a great many times now, and I cannot see it getting old, ever.  It is awesome and whoever lands it *deserves* that extra three seconds of gloating.

 

Yeah, jump installs make little sense, but I understand why the motions are more difficult, as it makes it harder to react with them. I mean, I'd love for everything to be simple quarter circles with the occasional SRK, but I can get why they'd go with a more complex motion. I do agree on the input parser, but that may be because SFIV has made me extremely sloppy with my half circles.

[burningvigor]

Jump Installing is a pain as a Chipp player without a stick(refuse to pay 150 to play gg with a stick)  But it's kind of fun constantly JI your strings.  Makes your hand busy and feel like your doing things fast like Chipp. 

 

Sucks when I screw it up and end up jumping, but I think its a mechanic that should stay.  It's a fun quirk that I'm kind of glad it stayed.

[shtkn]

i'd rather moves automatically Jump Install except specific ones (like DPs)

[Dude Butts]

I miss FRCs and i-no's stupid chemical love motions.  Why?  Because doing them was fun, for the same reason that learning and playing a guitar solo on a real guitar will always be more fun than playing it on guitar hero.  In fact I learned and mained i-no since reload because she was difficult and unwieldly.  I chose to go to the moon, not because it was easy, but because it was hard.

 

I'm getting really tired of everyone trying to homogenize and simplify fighting games with the objective of turning them into hyper rock-paper-scissors.  To me that says that these people play fighting games for all the wrong reasons.  Probably the same reasons mike could never give up potemkin.  To me that says that people want to play fighting games because they want to win.  Begging for the game to be simplified to reach this end is lowering the bar so you can clear it, plain and simple.  

 

This isn't to say that execution should be as complicated as possible, because if a decade of ggxx has taught us anything, it's that great fun can be reached by a balance of practical complication and competition.

 

I'm not trying to use potemkin as a scapegoat for my judgments on people who clearly don't like rote practice, because he has his share of difficult matchups and frankly he's a really fun character to play...  but I suspect the reason mike and many other people who start and end up sticking with pot do so because there is so little to focus on when applying him, you don't have to practice more than 1 or 2 combos, and he has more applicable and powerful 50/50 setups than anyone else in the game.  He wanted to quit gg with accent core, the game that has easily the most bullshit version of potemkin there will ever be, because he had to finally learn a single frc (that was there for his benefit anyway).

 

As far as YRCs go, my biggest problem with them is the way they're used at a high level.  They are an exchange for the smallest increment of meter for a no-risk high-reward situation at the neutral game.  low-risk high-reward situations are what guilty gear thrives on... when it comes to wake-up game and okizeme.  The neutral game has traditionally been a time of uncertainty for both players:  the challenge is feeling each other out and trying to be where you want to be, doing what you want to do, all while denying them the same opportunity.  You often have to take risks and whether or not it goes your way depends a great deal on how well both players react to unfolding situations.  This is a stark contrast to the wake-up game which is all about forcing the downed character to be at a disadvantage and to have much fewer choices they can make if they hope to avoid taking damage.  What YRC ends up doing then is effectively taking the neutral game as we know it and reducing it to the expectations (often better for the user) and consequences (often worse for the opponent, especially if they're mid-poke or midair) as the wakeup game.  

 

Tradition should never be used to judge what's good and what's bad, however, so this is just my own beef with YRCs.  In the short time the game has been out, I've learned to fear and respect a quarter bar of tension at the neutral game when the opponent hasn't even done anything yet, and that just seems less like like fighting games and more like monopoly.  This could be fixed by simply removing the slowdown for YRCs, but I'd be just as happy having stricter inputs for it back as well.

[Margatroid]

Yes surely Guilty Gear is "rock paper scissors" without the existence of FRCs. All element of skill is gone now. :tiniest violin:

[Dude Butts]

Yes surely Guilty Gear is "rock paper scissors" without the existence of FRCs. All element of skill is gone now. :tiniest violin:

 

err... I guess I didn't articulate this well, but I don't think that's the case, I was just saying that mike z seems to want to steer the game more in that direction by making all the options built in and all the special motions as simple as possible

[TheRealBobMan]

Yeah, I guess that's a good point. In case you can't tell, I still have no idea what the green version does myself. And I've been playing Guilty Gear for 12 years.

 

IIRC, the green version does 6 more damage and recovers 2 frames faster, but I think the regular version either floats higher or has more untech time on hit or something.  There's a legit reason to use the normal version over the green version in certain situations.

 

 

I also just realized that Mike made a mistake too, with the line, "You can input a YRC after any superflash in case the opponent bursts, with the super connecting as usual if they didn't."  I'm 99.99% sure that supers burst lock the opponent (unless the timing for the lock changed in Xrd)... it's kind of the point of using most supers in combos.

 

 

 

As for YRCs, I'm actually a little annoyed with both the screen freeze AND the time slow.  I like the idea of being able to use time slow to bait things in neutral, but as an I-No player I feel like it's just too good to have the screen freeze so you can react if they're doing something, and then have the time slow which ruins most counter-poke options.  It makes things like STBT YRC and VCL YRC super strong, which then makes I-No feel more brain dead.  I'd like it if the screen freeze when YRCing a move was shortened (to 10-12 frames) or completely removed.  I also feel like canceling a move on startup shouldn't give you the time slow, though it's absolutely awesome on hit, and I think I'd like it if there was still time slow if you "cancel" at neutral.  If they were to remove the time slow when canceling a move's startup, they'd probably need to slightly increase the time slow when canceling at neutral, though the amount (if any) would depend on if they left the screen freeze for a neutral cancel or not.  I'd rather it be gone because it seems to eat controller inputs.

 

YRC command throw is pretty silly.  PRC seems a bit more fair, but you still have that issue of the time slow making it easier to punish whatever they did to dodge the command throw on reaction, and you have time to react to it because of the PRC screen freeze.

 

 

Changing the cancel system that drastically would mean that most of the characters would need to be rebalanced, especially I-No.  A lot was taken from her, I think specifically because they know how strong she is with the current YRC.  While I really enjoy Xrd, there's one large shift in I-No's style that I kinda don't like... I feel like she's more like Millia now, except that maybe even Millia has to work harder.  I liked how I-No's tools were really good in specific circumstances, but she had the weakness of bad hitboxes.  Her moves didn't really cover more than 1-2 situations (has to AA with 5P/6P/6H/VCL depending on context), but her rewards were pretty huge when she made the right decision (CH STBT, CH 6H, CH Kdive), and this was even without meter.  Now, with the combination of extremely strong oki, the reduction in reward off of neutral game options, and the increased meter commitment for either max damage when in the corner or improved corner push, she needs more combos on average for the kill.  Her oki was still really strong before, but she took more risk than Millia did, which justified her potential damage output.  Millia had more tools to mix up with, and they each covered different escape options, so she was a little safer and a little more consistent in keeping the other player locked down in exchange for having to win at oki more times.  Dizzy was probably the safest on oki because her fish would take hits for her, but her actual mixup wasn't quite as strong as Millia or I-No, and I think her damage was kind of in between them when she wasn't using her throw (which she needed to use often because her throw range was above average and her dash acceleration was excellent).  So I'm actually unhappy with VCL YRC removing thought from I-No's oki game by making it much safer.  I liked that she had a hard time because her hitboxes would lose during neutral and you had to make smart decisions, but now once you've gotten one knockdown you're trying to win the round off of 3-4 more decisions where they're at a huge disadvantage.  I played Millia and Chipp for a while in the past, and I quit playing them because I got over the whole "don't let the other player play the game" thing.  This change isn't going to make me stop playing the game, and I still find I-No fun, but I'm not enjoying playing her quite as much as before.  It feels more like actual "setplay" rather than just having strong mixup and oki tools that could fail if you got the early advantage, but could give you the win with 1-2 more combos if you had enough meter and got a really good hit during neutral.

 

 

 

 

While it's a minor gripe, I agree 100% with the stage reloading problem.  It wastes time, and when using "random" for music or stage, you don't get a different stage or BGM, or different character voice sets either.  What exactly is there to reload into the game's memory?  Either save the time or give me different music!

[redsilversnake]

I also just realized that Mike made a mistake too, with the line, "You can input a YRC after any superflash in case the opponent bursts, with the super connecting as usual if they didn't."  I'm 99.99% sure that supers burst lock the opponent (unless the timing for the lock changed in Xrd)... it's kind of the point of using most supers in combos.

I believe he means when one player bursts right as the other finishes the input for a super, in which case the burst will win out against any supers that lack invulnerability. In those instances, you could probably still use the YRC OS as long as you had 75-99% tension.

[SoWL]

Mike Z is definitely right about some things in the department of not making the right stuff easier. Like Ramlethal's "green Dauro," for example. That is some stupid nonsense that the game makes no effort to explain to new players, and in her challenge mode it's practically impossible to decipher how it's done from the obtuse notation that is given. And even if you do manage to perform the move, there is zero indication given as to how it's different from the regular version. Everything about it is unnecessarily obscure. If they're trying to make the game as friendly to new players as SF4, they still have a long way to go.

The only SF I've played is vanilla 4 (oh, and the original SF2 on a Japanese airplane seat), but GG easily has the best learning tools I've ever seen in a fighting game. The challenges are actually useful, the whole Mission mode is made out of sugar and sunshine, and the Training mode got most of improvements we've seen in BB. On the other hand, I do agree that it could do a better job explaining some individual moves, like you say. It does fit some essential stuff in the Challenges, but that's not enough. In fact, I'm very surprised that GG doesn't have BB-like Lessons on each character in the roster, especially since it's not supposed to be that hard to write or implement. Add that in the next installment along with some luxury Training options, like hitbox viewer or the frame data, and you won't even need that link to the 4gamer wiki (which, I suppose, is there to answer all the questions a Japanese-speaking player might get).

[Margatroid]

Yeah, Lessons would be really nice. I'd like to see them implement something like the character tutorials in Darkstalkers Resurrection, which were extremely useful and taught you the theory behind playing a character instead of just providing an abstract list of moves and combos. It would actually explain that Lilith is a rushdown character, for example, and then outline her strengths and weaknesses, providing examples of how to play to her strengths along the way. By comparison, in Xrd's challenges you get to practice a bunch of combos the characters can do, but it gives you no real idea of what a particular character's play style is. On top of that, some of the initial combos that are offered involve difficult jump canceling, and just don't feel very "BnB" or fundamental. It just seems like a lot more thought could be given to outlining the fundamentals of who these characters are gameplay-wise and what they're trying to do.

[destruction_adv]

The only SF I've played is vanilla 4 (oh, and the original SF2 on a Japanese airplane seat), but GG easily has the best learning tools I've ever seen in a fighting game. The challenges are actually useful, the whole Mission mode is made out of sugar and sunshine, and the Training mode got most of improvements we've seen in BB. On the other hand, I do agree that it could do a better job explaining some individual moves, like you say. It does fit some essential stuff in the Challenges, but that's not enough. In fact, I'm very surprised that GG doesn't have BB-like Lessons on each character in the roster, especially since it's not supposed to be that hard to write or implement. Add that in the next installment along with some luxury Training options, like hitbox viewer or the frame data, and you won't even need that link to the 4gamer wiki (which, I suppose, is there to answer all the questions a Japanese-speaking player might get).

The lack of lessons surprised me too actually, they have missions about fighting AGAINST characters for some reason, but nothing about playing them which is kinda backwards to me.

[BagLunch]

The title of the thread is really misleading.  It should really be "Two opposing view of GGAC", because that's actually what they disagree on.

[Destin]

The option select throws, the way they are, actually make sense assuming that was intentional for the designers (which is easy to assume as its like a 4 lines of code change).  

 

Step one - You need a longish move to overlap with your backthrow, as this is by far your most powerful move defensively.

Step two - Buttons follow the rainbow of power, with lever moves (those that require forwards) more powerful (slower) than those that don't.

 

Perhaps, initially, these OS's were unintended, but I think they did what any good developer would do and looked to see how the os's were affecting gameplay.  Instead of changing the throw to K or S or something so you immediately used your generally fasted OS button and overpowering the backthrow, in addition to ruining the very logical strongest button makes a throw argument, they let you choose.  They felt this added an advantage to the attacker which is very guilty gear.  They removed the OS that was way to strong (#R OS FD throw I'm looking at you), and left the reasonable one.  Tl;dr The designers wanted you to be able to choose which button to throw with, while leaving in the intuitive use of the H button to throw for beginners.  

 

Who is dudebutts? I find myself agreeing with him a bunch.

 

YRC's are great, but... have problems.  The time slow and the slowdown is part of that problem, but I'm not sure how to fix that exactly.  Should I really be able to throw out a gunflame, YRC it, and then get the extra advantage if my opponent called me on the gunflame?  Even when I use it, I don't really feel like I deserved the hit.  When I play against venom, where I could usually pull my balls out and go for an IAD now and then, it's become quite a bit more reserved because well, if he yrc's, my already risky move becomes suicide.  I'm not sure how to fix it, the screen pausing remaining for all 3 RC types makes sense, as does the slowdown for the sake of consistency.  One thing I could think about is increase the window of the proration?  Right now it's only doing the slowdown I think, so perhaps if it lasted a full 30f after a YRC, it would at least damper your following attacks?  Also, burst OS will probably be fixed in the next game by just making the burst state a non YRC able state.  

 

The thing that really, really gets me is the OS command throw YRC.  That shit is just stupid strong, it should at least be a prc, at LEAST.   

[sren]

 

What's this mean?  I'm very, very new to the GG community.  What's FAB been doing to help the community?

 

guess since the arcade release this is the kind of stuff FAB has been into 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2ztjD8rBzQ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMtm3-XuGOA

[D.R.F.]

guess since the arcade release this is the kind of stuff FAB has been into

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2ztjD8rBzQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMtm3-XuGOA

Oh you mean bodying people. Well you know what they say, if the nonsense is there, then embrace the nonesense.

Also, if we are going to have slowdown on cancels, can we keep it on just red cancels? Since that was made for beginners in order for hitconfirming to be a little easier. I would like to see prc have a bit more recovery (BECAUSE IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A MISTAKE) and I would be all for yrc to have less or even no slowdown. The input eating is painful and it sometimes feels like the game is telling you because they spent %25 meter, they are in CONTROL of the match. Xrd is fun and all I enjoy it a ton. I am just hoping some things get changed along the way.

Edit: fuck Toranshi super.