[CPEX] Blazblue: Chronophantasma Extend News and Gameplay Discussion 3.0

[TD]

What would be broken is if his drill was actually broken. As amane stands now, I don't see what -anyone- could complain about, because even when drill is blocked and reset to neutral, he can't press the advantage as he could have before.

I also think it's being completely missed that amane has zero mixup whatsoever. His cross ups are slow as shit, his one overhead is extremely impractical and on top of that unrewarding, and his throw game needs him to be too close for comfort where he is arguably at his riskiest due to the nature of his pressure being short and having exploitable holes.

(There is only one other character with barely any good overhead or at least usable consistently, and his name is terumi. Look where he is on the tier list. Mixup is a very important thing in this game, and if you don't have something to circumvent the loss, you are in trouble.)

As if that weren't enough he is punished for not using the drill, and for using it too much. It's not like he's going to be doing 5b 5d xn or 5d fabhop jd all day, and his neutral leaves a lot to be desired so he can't really rely on that, even though he has to, much more so, in this version. :/

On his design, I don't understand. Why does terumi gain so much meter? Why can nu zone you all day? Hell, why can hakumen counter? There is nothing "wrong" with their designs, and there is nothing wrong with amane's, either. It all depends on what the developers make of it.

[Argent Zero]

Raziul complains about a character for being broken, everyone counters him, moderators tell everyone to chill.

 

I've seen this happen three times so far. Is this going to happen for every character?

I'm now interested on how everyone else is broken from your point of view.

 

As for Amane, I'm not too sure how the character operates, but I know he's going to go for the kill once he hits Level 3 Drill. That might offer you some way to counter him. And don't you use Hakumen? The character that counters with a push of a button? The drill isn't a grab, what are you doing?

I'm more concerned about Amane's long range attacks. Can't spit out clouds without being wrapped in that silky smooth cloth.

[Fusionist]

I have a friend like this. He always gets bothered by things that "defy" fundamental concepts. Card games? "Cards should go to the graveyard; why do these ones go back in the deck?" (shout-out to the Madolche archetype in Yu-Gi-Oh, but it's a shitty TCG so don't play it) Fighting games? Pretty sure he has issues with Amane's and Terumi's concepts alone. To him it's not about whether the deck, character, etc. is overpowered. He is just very... traditional? About basic/fundamental concepts of a game. Breaking that rubs him the wrong way.

 

If it was just a rock-paper-scissors of attack, block and throw, then this wouldn't be BlazBlue. What keeps this game flavorful is the fact that characters have unique drives and play styles. There's a reason why so many people were bothered by the fact that CP Extend seemed more streamlined. (A lot of those people said they wouldn't buy this game - most of them were wrong, but I digress.) BlazBlue's very concept involves gimmicks.

 

And I think it's completely fine for those gimmicks to "break fundamental rules" as long as they don't break the game's balance. And trust me, I prefer playing with straightforward characters. The only character I ever learned that wasn't straightforward was Izayoi (unless Platinum counts), but she became a lot more streamlined this version and I personally embrace it because that suits me better. So as someone who enjoys the "rock-paper-scissors" of fighting games, I am okay with chip damage. Because at the end of the day, why does it matter if it's not cheating you out of wins? I can see that ArcSys tries very hard to make sure certain gimmicks don't get out of hand. Amane has high chip damage, Terumi has high meter gain, yet neither character has ever been that good because everything else has been kept in check, such as mixup game and move properties.

If you're losing to it, then it's an error on your part, not the developers. In that case, you'll need to learn how to deal with it (rush that shit down and watch Amane cry?). But overall, it's one character with this gimmick, and a poor character at that. It shouldn't affect you. It hasn't affected most people. I'd rather hear complaining about Nu's zoning because she's actually threatening. But even then, complaining can only take you so far. If you care enough about the game, become good enough to deal with the things you currently can't handle.

[oh no, he said]

Raziul complains about a character for being broken, everyone counters him, moderators tell everyone to chill.

 

I've seen this happen three times so far. Is this going to happen for every character?

I'm now interested on how everyone else is broken from your point of view.

 

As for Amane, I'm not too sure how the character operates, but I know he's going to go for the kill once he hits Level 3 Drill. That might offer you some way to counter him. And don't you use Hakumen? The character that counters with a push of a button? The drill isn't a grab, what are you doing?

Amane has some neat tricks for dealing with hakumen since his long range normals don't have projectile properties so hakumen can't cut them, and I think his 6B is pretty much immune to hakumen's drive because of how it causes amane to go into the air and back, at the very least, I've never had a 6B punished by haku's drive.(might be different in cpex since I don't have it yet)

 

I almost never use drill against hakumen because it's a close range skill with projectile property, and you can kinda just dance around him for most of the match while slapping him with normals until you can fish out a decent confirm. It's a odd matchup, really.

 

Edit: Just did a bit of testing (which i really should have done before posting but w/e) and 6B can be punished if you're close enough.

[Argent Zero]

Amane has some neat tricks for dealing with hakumen since his long range normals don't have projectile properties so hakumen can't cut them, and I think his 6B is pretty much immune to hakumen's drive because of how it causes amane to go into the air and back, at the very least, I've never had a 6B punished by haku's drive.(might be different in cpex since I don't have it yet)

 

I almost never use drill against hakumen because it's a close range skill with projectile property, and you can kinda just dance around him for most of the match while slapping him with normals until you can fish out a decent confirm. It's a odd matchup, really.

Ah, that shed some light on Amane vs Hakumen. Thanks Oh No

 

But regarding the complain over chip damage, like what Ranger said, barrier blocking.

 

Hell I won matches with chip damage because the opponent thought he was safe blocking with only a sliver of health.

 

Everyone got to remember that every character has moves that cause chip damage.

[o Nereus o]

Personally the changes to Amane's 5B and 6B are real dealbreakers, I loved those guys like family. 

 

It felt like they looked at Amane, figured out some of his major weaknesses, and instead of buffing them, drastically changed them to exist as something that's piratically unrecognizable from what they were in 1.1. Like, yeah, that'd be alright if they were also overall stronger options but that's really just not the case as far as I'm concerned.

Sounds like Terumi's changes 

[BlackYakuzu94]

You pretty much have to wait it out, or tag him with a J.C.

Once you lock Amane down, it's a pretty free matchup for Hakumen. It's just Amane has mobility while Hakumen doesn't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Raziul]

Chip damage as a mechanic doesn't bother as much as losing 40% of my health because I blocked an attack or attacks does.

[Argent Zero]

Chip damage as a mechanic doesn't bother as much as losing 40% of my health because I blocked an attack or attacks does.

Well, that's how the character operates. If your going to gripe about something like that, well... yeah.

 

Speaking of which, does Amane's Level3 drill deal less damage if you don't block?

From my past experience, I felt like I survived more of his Level3 attacks by either barrier blocking or just letting it go through.

 

Sorry for being so unenlightened, I just don't care about anyone that isn't my main or sub.

[Luminos564]

Everyone got to remember that every character has moves that cause chip damage.

 

Except for those characters, chip damage is an afterthought whist for Amane it is his main objective and primary damage reward. And I can understand why people like Raziul might fear him. It's not that he and his mechanic are "good right now" but rather "could become good in a later update" because let's face it: bottom feeders tiers in ASW games tend to eventually drag themselves back up. Amane was what, mediocre in 1.0/1.1? He's craptastic now. What happens if in BB4 he jumps to upper mid? Not even top of the tier pyramid, but just simply a little above average?

 

Mind you though, I am not defending Reziul's P.O.V because I do not believe Amane's chipping mechanic is as dangerous as he makes it out to be. If it were, we definitely would be seeing a lot more of him being used. And personally, I am kinda glad he exists. Too often I find myself getting bored with players generally being far too defensive because they know Barrier Blocking is their little safety net. Then Amane fabulously trots towards them and you know they're forced to be more aggressive since allowing him to have his way with your Barrier is just asking to get drilled to death.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Chip damage as a mechanic doesn't bother as much as losing 40% of my health because I blocked an attack or attacks does.

Well chip is all Amane has going for him, and even then he's still pretty bad it seems.

Without chip, he'd literally be nothing. It's best to focus on how not to be put into the position where he can chop you for 40% rather than criticizing the concept itself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bio_NightShadow]

*Rips out my soul* *throws it between TD and fusionist* TAKE IT! you guys deserve it so much just take it D:

 

 

Well, that's how the character operates. If your going to gripe about something like that, well... yeah.

 

Speaking of which, does Amane's Level3 drill deal less damage if you don't block?

From my past experience, I felt like I survived more of his Level3 attacks by either barrier blocking or just letting it go through.

 

Sorry for being so unenlightened, I just don't care about anyone that isn't my main or sub.

 

And from i what i know amane drills do less damage on hit rather then block but if he gets a hit with drill he could possibly go into a combo that would do more damage then if you blocked

[Argent Zero]

 

And from i what i know amane drills do less damage on hit rather then block but if he gets a hit with drill he could possibly go into a combo that would do more damage then if you blocked

Are there even any combos that start off with Level 3 Drills? I've never seen any Amane user do such a thing

[oh no, he said]

Chip damage as a mechanic doesn't bother as much as losing 40% of my health because I blocked an attack or attacks does.

 

If you're honest to god in a situation where this happens against Amane then that's more of a problem with you than it is a problem with amane's mechanics, because really, what you're describing is by no means easy for an Amane player to achieve.

Well, that's how the character operates. If your going to gripe about something like that, well... yeah.

 

Speaking of which, does Amane's Level3 drill deal less damage if you don't block?

From my past experience, I felt like I survived more of his Level3 attacks by either barrier blocking or just letting it go through.

 

Sorry for being so unenlightened, I just don't care about anyone that isn't my main or sub.

Level 3 drill does slightly more on block than taking the hit by about a few hundred points of damage or so, but you can combo off of of 5D, 2D, and j.6D even without counterhit for more overall net damage, especially in the case of 2D; 2D->236A->j.6D->236B->j.6C->236C [~4.5k]. Granted, raw 2Ds are hard as fuck to land since the range is so awful, but still.

 

only real outlier is 6D. Never normal block 6D if amane has no drill meter. Just take the hit. 

[mAc Chaos]

I don't really understand how people can be ok with being punished for using the most fundamental mechanics of fighting games. At the most basic level, you have attacks for offense, blocking for defensive, and grabs to counter an impenetrable guard. Why is it ok for me to lose 30% of my health while blocking a non grab attack? Introducing a character that can ignore or circumvent the most basic rules of the game is completely idiotic. Blocking is there to prevent damage, and if I can't count on it for even that, why is it there?

Because it's not any different than a grab beating block. The fundamental mechanics aren't there to be some absolute unstoppable tool, they're just there to give you outs in different situations. You can't always count blocking low to save you from attacks either. Same for Counter Assaults whiffing or getting baited, or bursts getting baited, or backdashes getting punished, or jumps getting punished. Blocking is just another move with its own pros and cons.

[Errol]

it's like getting pissed about hakumen having an unblockable DD.

[Dreiko]

Good. I thought the change made in the loketests had stayed in, given that Bang's Nail-brella had a command change(?)

That was I think just an early loctest thing. I remember reading the same too but come release time and it's still 6432146B like in 1.1.

[Eshi]

I don't really understand how people can be ok with being punished for using the most fundamental mechanics of fighting games. At the most basic level, you have attacks for offense, blocking for defensive, and grabs to counter an impenetrable guard. Why is it ok for me to lose 30% of my health while blocking a non grab attack? Introducing a character that can ignore or circumvent the most basic rules of the game is completely idiotic. Blocking is there to prevent damage, and if I can't count on it for even that, why is it there?

You know. Most throws do 30% anyway and dont need an arbitrary meter to be at max for it. Barrier block is a basic mechanic of the game that counters chip just like throw tech counters throw, you should start using it instead of being a scrub.

i dont think he hates amane, but more the gameplay design. imagine if amane would be actually a solid char + that ridiculous chip dmg. its just broken by design, but amane is so crap (and other chars very good) that it doesnt really matter.

Everywhere I go, I see people say this. Why? Why is chip damage broken? It's just chip damage. Every single attack does chip damage in UMK3 and it's one of my favorite games ever. Amane has 0 mixup so his drills are essentially a creative replacement for the thing that everyone else has. He would not be broken if his drills were good. He would be a normal character.

[Errol]

You know. Most throws do 30% anyway and dont need an arbitrary meter to be at max for it. Barrier block is a basic mechanic of the game that counters chip just like throw tech counters throw, you should start using it instead of being a scrub.

Everywhere I go, I see people say this. Why? Why is chip damage broken? It's just chip damage. Every single attack does chip damage in UMK3 and it's one of my favorite games ever. Amane has 0 mixup so his drills are essentially a creative replacement for the thing that everyone else has. He would not be broken if his drills were good. He would be a normal character.

 

Agree completely, I regularly come across people who think Rachel can't be bad just because she has an instant overhead. Different characters can have different mechanics and still end up on the top, or the bottom.

[Moy_X7]

Just found out that most of Plat's pogo combos don't work on stupid Noel (and Celica). That bitch's hit-box has made a lot of Plat's BnBs drop since CSII. Do any other characters have problems doing combos on Noel? God I hate this character so much (since the days of CT). 

[Raziul]

Because it's not any different than a grab beating block. The fundamental mechanics aren't there to be some absolute unstoppable tool, they're just there to give you outs in different situations. You can't always count blocking low to save you from attacks either. Same for Counter Assaults whiffing or getting baited, or bursts getting baited, or backdashes getting punished, or jumps getting punished. Blocking is just another move with its own pros and cons.

 

I don't want it to be unstoppable, that's why we have grabs. I want it to be consistent. AGAIN, what is the point in blocking if I take the same damage whether I block or don't? It defeats the ENTIRE purpose of the mechanic.

 

 

You know. Most throws do 30% anyway

 

Not all games treat grabs the same, but almost all FGs have a grab mechanic for the express purpose of breaking an impenetrable guard.

 

 

it's like getting pissed about hakumen having an unblockable DD.

 

Distortions require finite resources. In your example of Yukikaze, remember that it  is essentially a distortion DP with special properties. It is completely useless if you do absolutely nothing. It loses if you grab. You can jump over it if you're not frozen. If I do absolutely nothing against drills I take the damage. If I block it, I take the damage. Barrier will run out long before the drill ever stops. Seems pretty stupid.

 

Barrier block is a basic mechanic of the game that counters chip

 

Barrier deplenishes incredibly quickly and recovers very slowly. It only takes Amane several seconds of zoning to cooldown their drill meter enough to repeat another devastating chip attack. Besides, most of you missed the point anyway.

 

 

My answer to Mac sums up my problem with the situation.

 

Maybe you all should quit flying off the handle every time I express an opinion.

[mAc Chaos]

I don't want it to be unstoppable, that's why we have grabs. I want it to be consistent. AGAIN, what is the point in blocking if I take the same damage whether I block or don't? It defeats the ENTIRE purpose of the mechanic.

Distortions require finite resources. In your example of Yukikaze, remember that it  is essentially a distortion DP with special properties. It is completely useless if you do absolutely nothing. It loses if you grab. You can jump over it if you're not frozen. If I do absolutely nothing against drills I take the damage. If I block it, I take the damage. Barrier will run out long before the drill ever stops. Seems pretty stupid.

He was probably talking about charged Shippu unblockable.

Nobody flew off the handle, they're just criticizing your position.

Anyway, I don't understand why you're singling out blocking as the one mechanic that should be infallible. It already isn't; chip damage is in the game. So you're saying there shouldn't be chip damage in BB period?

Going back to what you said about Yukikaze though. To get chipped by Amane, or chipped in general, still depends on your choices. You have to choose not to barrier. You have to have played to put yourself in that position. It's like getting put in Gadget Finger mixup by Tager. He can just 360 the shit out of you but that doesn't mean it's not legitimate, because you wouldn't be there if you didn't already fuck up. It's the entire point of the character, to go through some hardships to put you in an advantageous situation. Like Arakune and curse.

[Raziul]

I'm saying it shouldn't do the same amount of damage as a regular combo. I should not be losing 3-4k health WHILE BLOCKING a regular attack. It's stupid.

[mAc Chaos]

That's the point of Amane though. Normal blocking against his drills is a mistake in the first place. Some characters punish you harder than others for turtling up and letting them run their game on you. It's like Mu, you have to stop him from setting stuff up.

It's just a different matchup.

[Raziul]

Why would that change my opinion? It's still stupid.