Coinage Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 IMO, Rachel is at a disadvantage against Litchi. Why I say this is well her range. I feel more relief when I have the pumpkin out ready to counter.
fragile Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 IMO, Rachel is at a disadvantage against Litchi. Why I say this is well her range. I feel more relief when I have the pumpkin out ready to counter. +1 I agree, Lichi's long range pokes are far more superior to rachel's pokes, in air and ground. For now, in this matchup I try to zone her as much as I can with cannon, pumpkins, and whenever there's an opening I try to get some damage from mixups/combos, but be careful from her dragonpunch
Maker Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Vs a friend (we both suck) we managed to see this game as a very open ended chess match. Everything has a place to go but nothing will survive long if you dont realize what IS going on in front of you. The entire game is zoning both for Litchi and Rachel, the difference to us seems to be the range at which this occurs. Litchi uses the Pole to keep rachel close, Rachel tries to push away by any means necessary and retaliate once there. Sorry if its, in accurate i only have so much time on Rachel.
fragile Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Vs a friend (we both suck) we managed to see this game as a very open ended chess match. Everything has a place to go but nothing will survive long if you dont realize what IS going on in front of you. The entire game is zoning both for Litchi and Rachel, the difference to us seems to be the range at which this occurs. Litchi uses the Pole to keep rachel close, Rachel tries to push away by any means necessary and retaliate once there. Sorry if its, in accurate i only have so much time on Rachel. True. Lichi tries to zone with 6B (with pole) and jB and jC and Rachel needs to zone her with her projectiles further away and use wind to stop her movement as much as possible. Btw if you happen to catch her without her pole, take advantage of it!! she can't dp you = free rushdown.
Rachel'sPantsu Posted July 18, 2009 Posted July 18, 2009 Against Litchi's DP... Probably the Best thing to Do is IB -> Dash in... But If you know DP is Coming a 2C is the best answer... Since It will Be a CH Rachel Can Do a 2C Wind Combo..
individuals Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 i play litchi, and as far as the good rachels i played, your pumpkin is your best bet. and make sure you go in with your pumpkin! preferably with the pumpkin behind opponent and winding towards you, cuz that was most annoying for me D: pressure into that crossup stonesmash overhead thing of yours and get litchi into the corner. if it becomes too much of a zoning game, dont be afraid to jump and launch a rod. however, if litchi places he staff down (while standing, if u can see; or while shot from the air) beware of the anti air staff path, but if you read it you can rush in for scary pressure T__T IMO, rachel vs litchi, its all about king of the....not in the corner.
kro_ Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Litchi is definitely one of Rachel's harder matchups. Probably 5-5. Up there with Jin but not as bad as v-13. Litchi's staff paths are great for forcing Rachel to block and lose her pumpkin. Her great air-to-air priority and long reach make it for very difficult to summon much of anything. Tsubame is great for getting her out of pressure. And her corner-rape is exceptional - similar to Rachel's in good oki setups but meterless. If it weren't for the frog in this matchup, I would say Rachel would be at a disadvantage. Frog oki actually makes Litchi's dp unsafe on wakeup, which is usually their get-out-of-jail for free card. I believe it can also absorb a hit from the ground staff path and survive it, which will help keep your pumpkin alive and allow you to rush in on her while she's staffless or still play a decent projectile-zoning game. Frog also helps you get out of the corner if you can manage to block until he saves you. Litchi can't hurt you much just by throwing the staff at you, so a full-screen zoning game is pretty good in this matchup. Mid-range is bad, because Litchi's long 6b counterhit or j.c counterhit gives her a free combo. Like Rachel, most of Litchi's close range attacks are pretty slow so I think things go pretty even here. And yeah, whoever controls the corner is at a huge advantage since it's fairly difficult for anybody to get out against these two.
individuals Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 Litchi is definitely one of Rachel's harder matchups. Probably 5-5. Up there with Jin but not as bad as v-13. Litchi can't hurt you much just by throwing the staff at you, so a full-screen zoning game is pretty good in this matchup. not much damage but it does get rid of those pesky pumpkins and litchi can rush in afterwards and begin the pressure. it helps me out a lot against rachel, so just to keep it in mind, more than just a freebie for weak damage.
Discotheque Posted July 21, 2009 Posted July 21, 2009 The character specific crap she has will guarantee that you get carried to the corner if she scores any counter-hit on you (and doing like 40% while at it). And her mix-up/pressure stuff at the corner is freaky. But I hate Litchi just because her combos are so mad long and not too flashy.
kro_ Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 not much damage but it does get rid of those pesky pumpkins and litchi can rush in afterwards and begin the pressure. it helps me out a lot against rachel, so just to keep it in mind, more than just a freebie for weak damage. Yeah, I mentioned that. So I did some testing on the projectile properties of Litchi's staff 5D, 2D, j.5D, j.2D. In case you didn't know, it's the move that hits once going forward and again on the way back. -If an active pumpkin, seed, or frog goes through the staff on the way forward, both the staff and Rachel's projectile will be nullified. The same is true for the staff on its way back. Rachel's pumpkin, lightning rods, or frog will still be on the field though. -If Litchi gets hit or blocks any attack, her staff immediately stops spinning and comes back to her automatically. Thus, Rachel can use pumpkin as a shield to absorb a blow during the forward arc of the staff and rush her before the staff hits on the way back. But since the pumpkin's active frames disappear once it passes through the staff, the pumpkin will not touch Litchi. This leaves both players open to direct attack unless you use wind again. Using wind again refreshes its active frames. If possible, it would be better to dodge the forward part of the staff and wind the pumpkin toward Litchi after dodging since that uses only 1 wind. Alternatively, since Rachel can attack with two projectiles at once, she can use the seed/pumpkin to 'absorb' a hit from the staff on its way forward and use the pumpkin/seed to force Litchi to block - which negates the second hit from the staff and puts Rachel in a good position (both lightning rod and pumpkin on the field). Use something like (summon pumpkin) 236b + 5d wind. If Litchi does the ground staff 2[D], the frog can absorb the hit on the way forward if the angle is correct and survive it, but it's somewhat unreliable. I forgot to test Shishin, but I'm pretty sure that eats up any projectile and still continues hitting.
antih3r0 Posted July 24, 2009 Posted July 24, 2009 nice info kro_ will be great to know when i have the staff nullified.
Binh Mighty Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 How do you guys punish her 623D (Dragon Punch) move on block? Sometimes when I do knife/fork, shes be able to block, whiff or it won't counter hit. I only play Litchis online, its probably lag? Litchi is -20 frame disadvantage on block and Rachel's 6B is 15 frame start up. Also how do you guys bait the DP? Does pumpkin overrides that? Like the way I bait is I just run up to their body after knockdown, but better players know when to use DP. I feel that because of her 623D move, it makes me play too safe and I can't play my oki game that I usually do.
JamsLegs Posted July 26, 2009 Posted July 26, 2009 In my experience playing against Litchi, or any character with a DP, starting mix-ups without the opponent being in block stun is a waste of HP(health), because they will DP. Best way to counter DP is know when they will DP first. Certain moves will signal players to DP.... I swear someone answered this question earlier -Rachel'sPantsu- " IB DP then rush in for mix-up or if you expect DP 2C into wind combo." If you are in the air always shield in case of DP since it is air unblockable unless you shield. Need to think in this match-up (Not a wing it match-up). P.S. Remember Rachel is a zoning character. Zone first, worry about combo's/mix-ups/cross-ups later. If your getting counter hit by DP when 6B then that should tell you something... Don't 6B. Litchi becomes easier without staff.
kro_ Posted July 28, 2009 Posted July 28, 2009 Added some Rachel vs Litchi videos to the video thread. http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5790&page=9
Rhythm Guy Posted August 23, 2009 Posted August 23, 2009 Hmm...This match up becomes difficult when Litchi constantly uses her j.B and combines them with air dashes to cross you up or rush-in. Is there an answer to her j.B besides instant blocking and moving out of the way before she 5B's into string. She usually does it at a fast speed and low height so 6A on reaction isn't reliable, and a j.B on CH gives Litchi a free long combo into her oki. Even without a CH it still combos. Thanks for the help in advance.
JamsLegs Posted August 23, 2009 Posted August 23, 2009 Well If you have good enough reaction to IB the j.B.. You should have a good enough reaction to do 2c into the CH.2c combo.
Kuuhaku Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 236D, where the pole spins around her is vulnerable to low attacks. So you can 3CD or dash 2B. Just you gotta be quick about it or you get a staff to the face. Other than that, for some reason I'm having trouble with Litchi that just throw their pole around everywhere and then get me with the skirt flip when I block. Her cartwheel air attack is also almost as annoying as Jin's jB. Oh, and a lot of Litchi lately seem to like putting the stick down, bursting, and sending stick buddy after you so they can cross up. e_e;;
Alex073088 Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 this match-up is pretty challenging. i can tell its very easy for the litchi players to press buttons all day with there poor pathetic pressure. trying to get free of litchi 's button mashing is very tough. i found lobelia b from a distance to be a good stopper for her j.b, and j.c spam. i normally wait for the litchi to do something unsafe when she doesnt have the staff to help me win this match-up. Zoning is very hard to keep up in this match because she throw the staff forward toward you well before u get a chance to get to much out. when the staff goes forward, then it comes back you have to block or jump it not allowing you to activate rods previously set out.allowing her a free ticket in you face. When doing this tactic the players will running away only when u go toward them. however, when the rods comes close to you they come at u having u deal with two attacks coming and her keeping you in check. the one where she does a big circle spin with the staff, i actually hit her and it still didnt go away, as well as pressure her block. the one wear she jumps on the staff and throws it with her legs covers a large amount of space, and puts you at severe frame disadvantage. and every staff return technique returns the staff to her allowing her to threathen you with her broken dp. to add to that, i feel as though her normals without the staff are still really good against rachel normals, alot of normals shrink her hitbox, come out really fast, and lift her off the ground.Frog set infinite does not work against her because she can just dp through the small whole there is.so you want to kill litchi not set frogs on her. dp kills frog also while rising from a knockdown. If rachel didnt deal good damage, oki, and pressure, then this match would be severely unfair. it reminds me alot of fighting v-13 actually. and cs this match-up is unwinnable there's no reason why litchi should not be able to fuck rachel up each time. it so free for litchi, the only saving grace is air sword iris. You have to play incredibly patient, remember litchi doesnt have good mix-ups her goal is to get a counter combo from you tryin to harm her.
Alex073088 Posted May 4, 2010 Posted May 4, 2010 lolwut dude litchi doesnt not have good mix-ups, omg :8/: seriously it seems like so many people on this website are so ignorant on the capabilities of every characters. Online i block every thing, the issue is getting away and starting you zoning or offense thats where she gets her damage. wtf Any how i thought i be nice and give some more hint info on litchi since i noticed no one really covered it in the thread. when placed in a corner by a combo, and being knockdown, every single litchi with use there staff to create this huge circular spin that travels toward you on your knockdown. you are unable to harm her while its out due to the fact that the move still is there and will not disappear if you wake dp or whatever. When people see this move coming they usually tech and the move hits them on block while there in the corner and litchi goes for another mix-up to reset you into her having enough heat to 13 orphan(gumby) distrotion drive. Or the litchi player will just pressure you while in the corner and keep you there via lockdown, and characters that have trouble with pressure will have a hard time getting out on a good litchi. The trick is to not tech when you see the move coming allowing it to hit you. she cannot combo off it, and your outside the corner free. You can tech using you invincablity frames and your golden. Litchi players will normally go for a purple throw attempt to stop you from leaving in this situation. Look for it, then break the throw, then make your next move. litchi loses all of her oki mix-up oppurtunities off this method. If she does anything else you can just tech roll behind her. I have played some really really strong litchi players and have no issues getting out the corner unpunished in this situation. I just have problem getting out of her strings while cornered, and some other things. Also if your forced to block the 13 orphans distrotion drive, it is not diffcult to block litchi going for her low and over head mix-ups. i do it all the time and this is online. you have to get use to her animation when blocking her and just block like second nature. i can actually auto-pilot block litchi's overheads now 90% of the time. but anyway just thought i share this.
Alzarath Posted May 4, 2010 Posted May 4, 2010 Wow... Litchi has bad mixup? You haven't played a good litchi AT ALL if you believe that.
Alex073088 Posted May 5, 2010 Posted May 5, 2010 Wow... Litchi has bad mixup? You haven't played a good litchi AT ALL if you believe that. i have played atg warlord litchi and also sixfoe litchi, atg warlord does cs pressure strings, which actually work really well in the corner. While sixfoe does ct pressure strings which have incredibly easy to see holes that allow you to get your offense started after blocking. However neither player wins the match mixing me up, they win by preventing me from doing anything with litchi's range, and catch me trying to prevent litchi from pressuring me only to fail and take damage while trying sometimes. Litchi nets all damage from counter combos or, dp. the others are just poor reaction to throw breaking, or overhead. which i block on autopilot now. Instead of saying wow, explain why you feel litchi in ct has good mix-ups. Maybe i may have missed something. Im only here to help out and share my experince and it would be greatly appreciated if other would do the same.
A.X.I.S. Posted May 5, 2010 Posted May 5, 2010 how about when litchi does her thirteen orphans and her other DD she gets free invisible mix up. how about the fact that without her stick her pokes get faster, or maybe the fact that her j.b can invisible cross you up. or the fact that she has a half screen overhead. if LK came in here he would laugh his ass off.
Alex073088 Posted May 5, 2010 Posted May 5, 2010 how about when litchi does her thirteen orphans and her other DD she gets free invisible mix up. how about the fact that without her stick her pokes get faster, or maybe the fact that her j.b can invisible cross you up. or the fact that she has a half screen overhead. if LK came in here he would laugh his ass off. dude its not hard to block litchi after she does that(loses the staff) i block everything, and this is online. And all her overhead pokes/normals are easy to see and all are unsafe on block, pokes being faster does not mean anything when considering mix-ups. And for the record her overhead normals with and without staff are slow. j.b Cross up is not a mix-up its a cross-up which can be blocked easyly or even jump and barrier-ed. also if you suggesting that slow ass overhead she has when she has the staff dude, i block that shit all the time its not hard at all. The 13 orphan mix-up is not invisable wtf! you can still see what litchi is doing, if her frame is standing tall shes going for her overhead, if her frame is close to the ground her going for a low, all her lows come out very slow. her overhead without the staff is slow also, and once you block it she has to wait a little bit before going for the next attempt. The great wheel dd, cannot be consider a mix-up if characters like rachel taokaka and bang can escape it so easyly. when she does it anywhere but after a corner knockdown. Anything else?
A.X.I.S. Posted May 5, 2010 Posted May 5, 2010 dude its not hard to block litchi after she does that(loses the staff) i block everything, and this is online. And all her overhead pokes/normals are easy to see and all are unsafe on block, pokes being faster does not mean anything when considering mix-ups. And for the record her overhead normals with and without staff are slow. j.b Cross up is not a mix-up its a cross-up which can be blocked easyly or even jump and barrier-ed. also if you suggesting that slow ass overhead she has when she has the staff dude, i block that shit all the time its not hard at all. The 13 orphan mix-up is not invisable wtf! you can still see what litchi is doing, if her frame is standing tall shes going for her overhead, if her frame is close to the ground her going for a low, all her lows come out very slow. her overhead without the staff is slow also, and once you block it she has to wait a little bit before going for the next attempt. The great wheel dd, cannot be consider a mix-up if characters like rachel taokaka and bang can escape it so easyly. when she does it anywhere but after a corner knockdown. Anything else? 1. what. 2. except when it comes to litchi she can just grab you instead of doing a j.b, I see litchi's do it when they think you can jump. 3. yes I am and she has three dragons which may not be fast but can catch you off guard if you choose to attempt a punish. 4. you never been purple grabbed before obviously. 5. she's suppose to do it after a knockdown anyways and she can control how it moves so its not so easily escapable. just because you can react to litchi's mix-up doesn't mean its bad it just mean you can react to it, I thought haku-men has bad mix up until I fought some of the good ones like jackG and qwerty...I was dead wrong.
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