Heroic_Legacy Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 How would Bang do better against Tager than Nu and Arakune? What can Bang do to Tager that would be better than what Nu and Arakune can do to Tager? It's tough. Bang definitely has a gigantic mixup game that in my eyes outshines Nu's and Arakune's. Bang being able to jump cancel most of his normals is one, since with that we can't really IB 360/720 if they are canceling all of their normals and flying around Tager like a butterfly. The inability to properly buster hurts Tager's game already. He doesn't necessarily live on his 360s, but the fear of a 360 makes the game worse on Tager. They'll constantly stay in the air, and collider only goes so far in the game considering it has no invincibility frames. Bang can almost never touch the ground in this fight unless Tager just backdashes for 20 seconds straight. Backdash and punish a jumping attack is probably the only good tool Tager has for this. But if the opponent knows how to bait a backdash, Tager just eats nails and a combo. If we were to take both players at the best of their abilities and fully knowing the matchup, I cannot honestly see a Tager player coming out near even with Bang. There's just too much that Bang can do for Tager to stop. Tager in the air is dead weight since the Bang can 2D, jump cancel it if it's blocked into something else, or dash twice to be back at full screen. Bang may not be doing much damage, but he will get guaranteed hits and combos all over the place since Tager's so easy to hit for him. Tager can't block low while Bang is in the air, Tager can't block high when Bang's on the ground since his lows are much faster than his overhead, and both lead to seals and a possible Distortion. Bang with nails on the field is even worse. Bang simply can move almost freely and tag Tager once and zoom away. Tager's only chance at catching him at this rate is to charge spark bolt and fire it as he dashes away. Oh sure, Tager mains will say backdash, but as I said earlier, a baited backdash is not good. Remember, if you think you see an attack off of a Bang dashing in the air once, and you backdash, they can dash one more time and combo off of that. In the end of the Bang theory simply I cannot see what Tager can do against Bang's amazing pressure game when the Bang player only uses jump cancelable normals and highlow games you. I mean, if you can manage to backdash a jump in or dash in, Tager controls that with a combo or 720. Maybe tries to AA with 2A, but Bang can just jump (If they have another one left) and punish it, or empty jump and command grab because you'll be expecting that crossup. I'm aware both Arakune and Nu have tools to bait backdashes as well, and that Nu has a great mixup game. But both shallow in comparison when we look at Tager. Which will be described below. What can Tager do to Nu and Arakune that would make the match-up that good? Nu: Ah well, no matter what I say people say Ribaia vs Galileo. That's probably the most linked to fight on this site. But in that fight Galileo did absolutely nothing but block and attempt to close the distance, when at least 3 times per round he had the option of letting Nu come to him, and him destroying Nu. Nu has those swords, we know. Nu can zone anyone out. That's true. Tager needs to get the magic distance for B sledge to be an option, and even then it might not be a good idea if the Nu is good enough. Someone somewhere called me an idiot for saying Tager has to push Nu into a corner and Tager has instant advantage. Claiming that act pulsar gets her out for free and gives her a mixup because she can TK 2147D. Well sure. But a good Tager will stand at Act Pulsar distance, and 360 that command upon reaction. Yes, Nu actually has recovery on it. You can even 720 them if you want. At 2/3 screen Tager has control of the match if Nu is in the corner. Believe it or not, he does. Nu's only option is to keep those swords coming, in which Tager can inch forward bit by bit until Nu has to pulsar out into a 360, or IAD into the backdash 360. If not, then B sledge counterhit. Yes, even if they 5DD J.2DD 214D. If they stop doing anything, you stop doing stuff. It's that chess match where Nu gets frightened. If they don't they are overconfident. Nu has to burn 50 heat to safely get out of that corner, and give Tager close to 100. In which, Tager can start the closing in all over again. Arakune: Sack of bugs is ridiculous, but not impossible to overcome. Will edit later. Leaving.
Mikachiru Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 projectile. but 5d won't be nullified if it hits nee-san. It'll hit you both T_T ...5D is in a tier of it's own... Well, it can be IB, so it's not all that bad.
worldjem7 Posted October 13, 2009 Author Posted October 13, 2009 That's just it though, Bang HAS to use mix-ups in order to trick the Tager into letting him hit him while Nu and Arakune can just lock Tager down with ease. With what you said about Bang, it seems like it could be at 60 or 65 at most for Bang. Arakune can stay in the air just as much, or longer, than Bang and has much better tools that lock Tager down entirely. Becaue of this, Nu and Arakune don't really need a mix-up game as much as Bang does vs Tager. For bang's Nails, Tager also has the option of sledging through them, like any projectile. It's just Nu and Arakune's projectiles are better in the sense that they allow better mobility than Bang's nails. I'd like to hear about this match-up from the Tager's side if there's someone who wants to contribute. For Nu: Nu doesn't ever have to AP into punish range and she definitely doesn't need 50 heat to get out of the corner if Tager isn't right next to her. Even then, Nu has options other than Counter Assault to get out of the corner, such as barrier and backdash. If Tager stands in range of punishing AP then Nu can shoot swords, if Tager gets a bit closer, Nu can beat him out with 2C, 3C or an A or B move. The only time Tager is at an advantage is if he somehow gets right in Nu's face, and Nu NEVER has to approach Tager. If Tager tries to make the Nu approach he'll lose. Sledge is very easy to bait, Nu can get out of the corner very easily by baiting their sledge into CH 2C > combos. If the Nu is being mindless and just spams 5DD j.DD then yeah they'll get CH but, smarter Nu's won't do that, and that's what we're looking for in a match-up.
4r5 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I out-wait all my tagers I knew I should of pre-empt'ed this counter. "out-waiting" tager results in tager getting a full mag bar. but eh, whatever, it's just half a point, according to whateverthehell this matchup chart. new game, let's go!
MisoSowee Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I knew I should of pre-empt'ed this counter. "out-waiting" tager results in tager getting a full mag bar. but eh, whatever, it's just half a point, according to whateverthehell this matchup chart. new game, let's go! well yeah this is all just mediocre net play out-waiting is lots o' magatama though! :D GO-GO BB : CS!
Osuna Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Really long postI don't understand your bang troubles. That play style is how you're supposed to play against Tager. If that's all it takes to mess you up then good Noels, Ragnas, and Jins should walk all over you. Perhaps Taos, and probably Rachels too. Tager has no anti air, that's why he loses to rush down characters in addition to zoning characters. Ara has some similar shenanigans too. Nu's got jump cancelable and double jump cancelable swords, she should really never ever be threatened by sledge. Also, the Aras I find online do not present an accurate representation of the match up, so I don't have anything to say there.
A.X.I.S. Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 It's tough. Bang definitely has a gigantic mixup game that in my eyes outshines Nu's and Arakune's. Bang being able to jump cancel most of his normals is one, since with that we can't really IB 360/720 if they are canceling all of their normals and flying around Tager like a butterfly. The inability to properly buster hurts Tager's game already. He doesn't necessarily live on his 360s, but the fear of a 360 makes the game worse on Tager. They'll constantly stay in the air, and collider only goes so far in the game considering it has no invincibility frames. Bang can almost never touch the ground in this fight unless Tager just backdashes for 20 seconds straight. Backdash and punish a jumping attack is probably the only good tool Tager has for this. But if the opponent knows how to bait a backdash, Tager just eats nails and a combo. If we were to take both players at the best of their abilities and fully knowing the matchup, I cannot honestly see a Tager player coming out near even with Bang. There's just too much that Bang can do for Tager to stop. Tager in the air is dead weight since the Bang can 2D, jump cancel it if it's blocked into something else, or dash twice to be back at full screen. Bang may not be doing much damage, but he will get guaranteed hits and combos all over the place since Tager's so easy to hit for him. Tager can't block low while Bang is in the air, Tager can't block high when Bang's on the ground since his lows are much faster than his overhead, and both lead to seals and a possible Distortion. Bang with nails on the field is even worse. Bang simply can move almost freely and tag Tager once and zoom away. Tager's only chance at catching him at this rate is to charge spark bolt and fire it as he dashes away. Oh sure, Tager mains will say backdash, but as I said earlier, a baited backdash is not good. Remember, if you think you see an attack off of a Bang dashing in the air once, and you backdash, they can dash one more time and combo off of that. In the end of the Bang theory simply I cannot see what Tager can do against Bang's amazing pressure game when the Bang player only uses jump cancelable normals and highlow games you. I mean, if you can manage to backdash a jump in or dash in, Tager controls that with a combo or 720. Maybe tries to AA with 2A, but Bang can just jump (If they have another one left) and punish it, or empty jump and command grab because you'll be expecting that crossup. I'm aware both Arakune and Nu have tools to bait backdashes as well, and that Nu has a great mixup game. But both shallow in comparison when we look at Tager. Which will be described below. Nu: Ah well, no matter what I say people say Ribaia vs Galileo. That's probably the most linked to fight on this site. But in that fight Galileo did absolutely nothing but block and attempt to close the distance, when at least 3 times per round he had the option of letting Nu come to him, and him destroying Nu. Nu has those swords, we know. Nu can zone anyone out. That's true. Tager needs to get the magic distance for B sledge to be an option, and even then it might not be a good idea if the Nu is good enough. Someone somewhere called me an idiot for saying Tager has to push Nu into a corner and Tager has instant advantage. Claiming that act pulsar gets her out for free and gives her a mixup because she can TK 2147D. Well sure. But a good Tager will stand at Act Pulsar distance, and 360 that command upon reaction. Yes, Nu actually has recovery on it. You can even 720 them if you want. At 2/3 screen Tager has control of the match if Nu is in the corner. Believe it or not, he does. Nu's only option is to keep those swords coming, in which Tager can inch forward bit by bit until Nu has to pulsar out into a 360, or IAD into the backdash 360. If not, then B sledge counterhit. Yes, even if they 5DD J.2DD 214D. If they stop doing anything, you stop doing stuff. It's that chess match where Nu gets frightened. If they don't they are overconfident. Nu has to burn 50 heat to safely get out of that corner, and give Tager close to 100. In which, Tager can start the closing in all over again. Arakune: Sack of bugs is ridiculous, but not impossible to overcome. Will edit later. Leaving. 1. your dead wrong, tager can play annoying games too, infact if bang tries 2D when your coming down then don't attack just land and 360/720 their asses but for god sakes don't let it connect he will fuck you. you can also back dash punish or A sledge his jump ins, if he tries to cross you up on wake up then use voltec charge or spinny it will eat that nasty bs. 2. tager players have to think smarter then their opponents, knowing back likes to use nail spam a smart tager would just A sledge it or again XYH it, hell why not just block it, IB the string wait for 6D then 360A him or if he tries to jump out from 2B>6C then back dash the next air...being tager means knowing your opponents potential and knowing how to stop it, you also forget that its means to keeping bang off you. by my experience my list is: tager vs. ragna; 4.5-5.5, ragna can treat you like a practice dummy. tager vs. jin: 5-5, jin has an annoying rush down but dp baiting is easy, only way you can fuck up if you forgot to punish gaps in block strings. tager vs. taokaka: 4-6, her pressure game is too damn good. tager vs. nu: 3.5-6.5, debate it, you can't win unless you A. take a risk or B. she makes a mistake. or C. you can 360/720 act pulsar on reaction. oh and secret D. she's dumber than shit. tager vs. bang: 4-6, stupid but doable tager vs. litchi: 5-5, she's dead without stick and its not too hard to get that stick out the way. tager vs. noel: 6-4, i pity noel's they are the easiest to 360. tager vs. hakumen: 5.5-4.5, nothing to worry about but him doing 5000+ combos off bullshit. tager vs. rachel: 4-6, her air's beat yours and her pressure can't be punished ah rape incarnate. tager vs. arakune: 3-7, just gotta make it hard for him to curse you, then you win off magna-tech gayness.
Antihippy Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Nu: Ah well, no matter what I say people say Ribaia vs Galileo. That's probably the most linked to fight on this site. But in that fight Galileo did absolutely nothing but block and attempt to close the distance, when at least 3 times per round he had the option of letting Nu come to him, and him destroying Nu. Nu has those swords, we know. Nu can zone anyone out. That's true. Tager needs to get the magic distance for B sledge to be an option, and even then it might not be a good idea if the Nu is good enough. Someone somewhere called me an idiot for saying Tager has to push Nu into a corner and Tager has instant advantage. Claiming that act pulsar gets her out for free and gives her a mixup because she can TK 2147D. Well sure. But a good Tager will stand at Act Pulsar distance, and 360 that command upon reaction. Yes, Nu actually has recovery on it. You can even 720 them if you want. At 2/3 screen Tager has control of the match if Nu is in the corner. Believe it or not, he does. Nu's only option is to keep those swords coming, in which Tager can inch forward bit by bit until Nu has to pulsar out into a 360, or IAD into the backdash 360. If not, then B sledge counterhit. Yes, even if they 5DD J.2DD 214D. If they stop doing anything, you stop doing stuff. It's that chess match where Nu gets frightened. If they don't they are overconfident. Nu has to burn 50 heat to safely get out of that corner, and give Tager close to 100. In which, Tager can start the closing in all over again. But then you factor in that a good nu has no reason to AP forward, can bait sled for punish, and can block off his jump ins pretty well. Just be patient, stay out of B sled range, punish, and you're golden. And sleds are the easiest things to bait in the world. 2C or even 6C and he eats a lovely counterhit wall bounce combo. And it's not exactly hard to melee tager as well. Alot more interesting anyway.
Henaki Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 tager: nu - 2.5 - 7.5 (there is a single consistent way to beat nu and that is very very slowly get her near a corner and then guess when she tries to escape it) arakune 2 - 8 (you ahve to get lucky on clouds to win, and then out play him on top of this) rachel 3 - 7 (generally bad matchup but you can actually out play her and win) jin 3 - 7 (same as above, jins air options rape tager) carl - 1 - 9 (i legitimately do not think this matchup is winnable without divine intervention once you play a carl that can consistently play intelligently and nail clap loop 100% you literally get 2 chances to kill a character with far better mobility and you cant even fucking combo him or use spark bolt outside of a combo) tao 3.5 - 6.5 (obnoxiously hard matchup, you are never at an advantage in terms of speed and priority, and you both do about equal damage) litchi - 4 - 6 (shitty mid range fight with staff, once litchi loses her staff the tempo swings to being even) ragna 4 - 6 (DP and jC are really all ragna has over tager) noel 4 - 6 (solid options to beat tagers consistently, tager can out guess her though) bang 4 - 6 (crossups, if tager gets momentum he stands a strong chance of winning, also a matchup where IB -> 720 is actually a consistent option besides litchi and ragna) hakumen 4.5 - 5.5 (tager cant recklessly attempt to get it and hakumen can maintain mid range until he has mad orbs, but until then hakumen sucks and tager has advatnage close range once hakumen blows orbs) i formed this opinion from fighting top usa players anyone talking about tager should reread my list. there was a lot of experience and time put into it.
DoomieJ Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 anyone talking about tager should reread my list. there was a lot of experience and time put into it. only thing i dont agree with is that hakumen matchup. if you get close enough to him, this matchup is easy cake. Until than, just build meter through IBing whatever he feels like throwing out midrange. 5:5 He pokes you, you throw him, xN You combo him, he combos you, xN one of the matches ive actually played in tourneys besides the annoying top 3s. EDIT: and i know youve played these matchups at tourney level, not online, so i respect it much more than say...98% of tager players ideas. Because online noels and bangs are not gonna play how Nas or 10stars do.
Henaki Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 It's tough. Bang definitely has a gigantic mixup game that in my eyes outshines Nu's and Arakune's. Bang being able to jump cancel most of his normals is one, oh yeah but by the way you are wrong on like every count here. nu has an instant overhead that leads to considerable damage on tager, arakune has TWO overheads, and retarded crossup game using amove tager has no consistent answer to beat, on top of having instant overheads, and they all lead into curse/6c loops. nus TK air sword, along with TK fake land low/throw. she also has (relatively easy to block) full screen mixups, and they both have unblockables, if you want to count those as mixups. bang has a slow overhead that loses damage if you bother to hitconfirm it, and 1 good cancelable move (2b...), and a command throw that does reasonable damage... against a grappler. please stop smoking crack, im not even going to read the rest of your post because its clear you dont play blazblue. you play a fantasy video game. perhaps you are from the future and are playing blazblue: accent core?
mAc Chaos Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 only thing i dont agree with is that hakumen matchup. if you get close enough to him, this matchup is easy cake. Until than, just build meter through IBing whatever he feels like throwing out midrange. 5:5 He pokes you, you throw him, xN You combo him, he combos you, xN one of the matches ive actually played in tourneys besides the annoying top 3s. EDIT: and i know youve played these matchups at tourney level, not online, so i respect it much more than say...98% of tager players ideas. Because online noels and bangs are not gonna play how Nas or 10stars do.I've been trying to rush down Tager as a Hakumen player as a challenge to myself. I've found that it's actually quite possible, although you need magatamas. But if you mess up, then you're fucked.
DoomieJ Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I've been trying to rush down Tager as a Hakumen player as a challenge to myself. I've found that it's actually quite possible, although you need magatamas. But if you mess up, then you're fucked. If he is any good at IBs, it should be hell to rush a tager down. IB 360A/720/360B(to a lesser extent) really really hurts hakumens rush game. It usually stops anyone i do it to in their hopping tracks.
-Papercuts Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 anyone talking about tager should reread my list. there was a lot of experience and time put into it. Yeah, this one makes a lot of sense. The Bang one I could maybe see a little more in his favor depending on FRKZ...it seems like all Tager has against that is spinny and sparkbolt. If by some miracle you magnetize him and you try to atomic collider him when he jumps around, then you can only cry in dismay as it fails horribly.
DeadCellSpawn Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Since when did Bang vs Haku become an even matchup? If Litchi is 5-5 then this must be higher. Bang vs. Tager seems a bit low too.
Lord Knight Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 See if you knew Litchi you'd actually understand why those matches are 5-5.
seventwenty1 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 ^ agreed and bang IS ass for tager, just not nearly as bad as nu/ara or even rachel imo. (i also dont know what you're smoking if you think he goes even with jin...when does jin ever have to be in a position to get hit)
worldjem7 Posted October 14, 2009 Author Posted October 14, 2009 How would the Bang-Carl match-up be so bad for Bang?
Mikachiru Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 You're joking, right Tenstars...? EDIT: Sorry if that sounds rude. It just hard for me to tell when you're joking and when you're dead serious... How would the Bang-Carl match-up be so bad for Bang? Because Carl knows how to get Litchi to hug him and Bang is sad that he will never be cuddled by her...assets. So whenever he looks at Carl, he crys and Carl takes that opportunity to put him out of his misery...
JinSaotome Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 it's mostly awful because A) Bang has the same issue as Tager in that clap loop is totally inescapable B) Not very many good combos work on Carl IMO though its more like 6.5-3.5 or 6-4 since Fire Knuckle combos will keep Carl far away from Nee-san, and its not drastically hard to keep Carl away once you have Nee-san out of the way.
Nobus3r1 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 carl - 1 - 9 (i legitimately do not think this matchup is winnable without divine intervention once you play a carl that can consistently play intelligently and nail clap loop 100% you literally get 2 chances to kill a character with far better mobility and you cant even fucking combo him or use spark bolt outside of a combo) anyone talking about tager should reread my list. there was a lot of experience and time put into it. Except for Carl I agree with you. That matchup might as well be listed a 0-10 due to aforementioned act of God that it would take for Tager to win.
rei-Scarred Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 it's mostly awful because A) Bang has the same issue as Tager in that clap loop is totally inescapable B) Not very many good combos work on Carl IMO though its more like 6.5-3.5 or 6-4 since Fire Knuckle combos will keep Carl far away from Nee-san, and its not drastically hard to keep Carl away once you have Nee-san out of the way. Except niisan can teleport:vbang: No, but seriously there's no room for error. I mean the only thing that makes this matchup easier for bang then tager, is at least Bang is mobile, but Carl's j.A shut's down Bang's air game really quick and Carl can low profile under bang's 5A. I watched ShoMeYaMoves (best bang I've fought personally) face Isuyaru (best carl I've faced personally) quite a bit recently and he lost every match, out of about 10. I think he may have mentioned that Carl was even worse than Arakune, but that might have just been spur of the moment rage. Sometimes it seems Carl can turn ANY hit into clap loop.
Mikachiru Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Sometimes it seems Carl can turn ANY hit into clap loop. That's because even Carl's jabs lead to a loop. A5 (summon Ada)>5B>6B/5C>6D>236A> [ground loop]XN>6C>2B>3C>[throw loop] 2A> 3C (summon Ada)>IAD>J.2C>Allecan>J.B+8D>[throw loop] The only attack I think that Carl can't really loop off of is 6A (but if Ada's around, that's a different story). As long as Ada is alive and nearby, you'll get looped (theoretically). Except for Carl I agree with you. That matchup might as well be listed a 0-10 due to aforementioned act of God that it would take for Tager to win. Is there even such thing...? So is the Carl Vs. Bang 70:30 now...?
Heroic_Legacy Posted October 17, 2009 Posted October 17, 2009 To add onto the Bang > Tager idea, even 10stars believes it to be a very uneven matchup. This match is imo, 7-3 for Bang. Tager has crap to really stop Bang from doing what he wants. Check the entire first post in the Bang matchups vs Tager for even deeper understanding.
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