Kuuhaku Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 Uh... they did? I'd like to see these "fair alternative stuffs". You mean the shitty DD and the slight speed buff to 4B? Compared to the laundry list of what was taken away/stomped on, yeah... that's a fair trade off. Mid-air sword iris I do like though. Not that she really needed it (well now she probably does).
Tari Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 I'd like to see these "fair alternative stuffs". You mean the shitty DD and the slight speed buff to 4B? Compared to the laundry list of what was taken away/stomped on, yeah... that's a fair trade off. Mid-air sword iris I do like though. Not that she really needed it (well now she probably does). Admitably, no one's really sure how to make any good use of the new DD, yet, but that doesn't mean it can't be useful sometime down the line. 4B is nice. Mid-air Sword Iris is reaaaally nice, though, as mentioned, that's mostly because everything else got nerfed to heck and back. Even if they don't give anything else but j.2c back, I'd be far happier than I am with her current restrictions.
killionaire Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 Yeah. Making j.2c usable again would be great. I'm fine with them nerfing the fork counter, since it was kinda stupid how you could turn things around with the amount of stun time you have.
ryuen Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 I've been looking at the other CS threads, and there's no mention of Rachel having any moves that remove guard primer. I see that everyone else has at least one move that removes guard primer. Is it just her that's missing a guard primer removing move?
Spirit Juice Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 The thing is, as gameplay evolved 6B in general became weaker and weaker. The move is pretty slow compared to most pokes, and you'd mostly see it used for punishing moves with CH state recovery (a supers, DPs, etc.). Fishing for 6B CH ended up being pretty risky at this point in the game. Instead of making 6B CH uncomboable now, they should've just added more proration to it if they didn't want a single CH to lead to a 4k combo. I absolutely hate it when characters have worthless moves, and 6B looks like it's going to be one of those moves you'll never use anymore.
Tari Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 The thing is, as gameplay evolved 6B in general became weaker and weaker. The move is pretty slow compared to most pokes, and you'd mostly see it used for punishing moves with CH state recovery (a supers, DPs, etc.). Fishing for 6B CH ended up being pretty risky at this point in the game. Instead of making 6B CH uncomboable now, they should've just added more proration to it if they didn't want a single CH to lead to a 4k combo. I absolutely hate it when characters have worthless moves, and 6B looks like it's going to be one of those moves you'll never use anymore. Good point. I hadn't really thought about it, but if it doesn't have any worthwhile stun on counter anymore, I don't really see much point to using it, either. I'm wondering how the whole j.2c nerf and j.a not being a high hit anymore will be dealt with, as far as mixups go.
Xtra_Zero Posted October 12, 2009 Posted October 12, 2009 God I hope 6A 63214D6C still works. Otherwise Rachel will have even less reasons to use meter. Did we ever figure out if it was the frog that prorated the fuck out of BBL, or is BBL just shit for damage now? Both? Anyone got the numbers for raw BBL damage?
Spirit Juice Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I'm pretty certain they just did straight up BBL in melee range day one of the first loke test. They also probably did it with the opponent standing on a single pole to determine how much damage the poles do as well. It's safe to assume BBL's damage was nerfed period.
ArkiveZero Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 Rachel: 5A, 2A, 6A, 5B, 2B, 4B are about the same 6B doesn't stun as long on counter 5C, follow-up, 2C, 3C about the same 6C no longer have height restriction, more damage. jA is no longer high hit. jB, jC about the same j2C still suck Wind affects frog, recovery start out slow but becomes faster. When wind is used recharge speed is reset. specials- pumpkin same on ground, slower activation in the air (not sure if it's getting it out or the actual hit), no longer guaranteed after wind (will disappear on hit), reduced active time and distance. lobelia no longer guaranteed, can call lightning before pole is completely formed. iris, frog, no change in activation. Frog itself has meter, move speed decrease, damage decrease. Can move quickly with wind. Because frog no longer jumps, spark bolt or other projectiles cannot hit it. super- ground lili is same air lili activate faster lili damage decreased nothign new about tempest. Used as reversal, safe on block, comboable on hit (if close enough). Not punishable. hmmm
ryokoalways Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I want to clarify something, when I said "when it actually hits", i meant when wind actually moves the pumpkin.
Tari Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 God I hope 6A 63214D6C still works. Otherwise Rachel will have even less reasons to use meter. Did we ever figure out if it was the frog that prorated the fuck out of BBL, or is BBL just shit for damage now? Both? Anyone got the numbers for raw BBL damage? I'm pretty certain they just did straight up BBL in melee range day one of the first loke test. They also probably did it with the opponent standing on a single pole to determine how much damage the poles do as well. It's safe to assume BBL's damage was nerfed period. One of the loketest info threads mentioned that melee BBL does 2200 damage, now. Not sure if that's still true in the latest loketest, but I'm assuming it is. The fact that the BBL only did 300 damage or so at the end of the combo is fairly... impressive. In a bad way. I want to clarify something, when I said "when it actually hits", i meant when wind actually moves the pumpkin. Probably just me being blind, but I'm not actually sure what you're referring to?
Outtawack311 Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 At least 2 more loke tests announced! Can I get a Hallelujah rachel players! We are not done yet! I was scared after the rumors that we were done with lokes.
ArkiveZero Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 damn 2 more location tests? i guess they're really trying to get it correct this time lol. good shit
zaeris Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 damn 2 more location tests? i guess they're really trying to get it correct this time lol. good shit or nerf her some more ^^, lol getting negative review is better than +ve as in most cases where a character felt decent ended up terrible due to the changes in game mechanics.
Tari Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 or nerf her some more ^^, lol getting negative review is better than +ve as in most cases where a character felt decent ended up terrible due to the changes in game mechanics. I think we might've had enough nerfs at this point, really. In any case, though, can anyone explain this to me? ... 7) ↓↘→↓↘→C does less damage. I don't recall there being a 236236C move, unless that's her new DD? Info from here.
killionaire Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 I think we might've had enough nerfs at this point, really. In any case, though, can anyone explain this to me? I don't recall there being a 236236C move, unless that's her new DD? Info from here. Sounds to me like her new DD. No other move of hers has that input. Plus, it has the double 236 input that is typical of many DDs.
Tari Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Sounds to me like her new DD. No other move of hers has that input. Plus, it has the double 236 input that is typical of many DDs. Yeah, that was why I guessed it was her new DD. Strange thing is, I'd heard it wasn't very damaging to begin with, so I couldn't really wrap my mind around the concept of lowering its damage value. Guess it's one of those things where I can't really take a stand until I see the numbers involved, though.
God_Of_Olympus Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Man, it's funny to take peaks at all the cry babies in the nu forums seeing as how they werent hit by a nerf train like rachel jin and noel...and especially in noel seeing as how they werent that great to begin with....it's funny how they think Nu wasn't all that great to begin with and how haku should be getting dmg nefs blah blah blah blah but anyways..... I doubt most of these changes will stay, they really had a cople of beers and thought "hey lets just nerf everything OP about rchel and do something jut to get them mad like make j2c completely useless" making wind more valuable and a few of the changes already made would be all right, all i want is her old j2c back and some sort of way to get out of pressure aside from wind your ass out of there
killionaire Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Man, it's funny to take peaks at all the cry babies in the nu forums seeing as how they werent hit by a nerf train like rachel jin and noel...and especially in noel seeing as how they werent that great to begin with....it's funny how they think Nu wasn't all that great to begin with and how haku should be getting dmg nefs blah blah blah blah but anyways..... I doubt most of these changes will stay, they really had a cople of beers and thought "hey lets just nerf everything OP about rchel and do something jut to get them mad like make j2c completely useless" making wind more valuable and a few of the changes already made would be all right, all i want is her old j2c back and some sort of way to get out of pressure aside from wind your ass out of there You think the Nu CS thread is a mess??? You should look at the Arakune thread.. Almost a lock-worthy amount of footage there. Anyway, to get back on topic, I got a question. Did they nerf BBL damage that comes from a lightning rod? I know they nerfed the AoE damage around Rachel to 2200, but what about lightning rod detonation damage?
Tari Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Man, it's funny to take peaks at all the cry babies in the nu forums seeing as how they werent hit by a nerf train like rachel jin and noel... ... Eh, haven't noticed much whining over there, honestly. I play Nu, too, and I don't really mind her changes. Her playstyle's largely the same as before. Combos will take a bit of work to figure out again, but it's still a lot of juggling. You think the Nu CS thread is a mess??? You should look at the Arakune thread.. Almost a lock-worthy amount of footage there. Anyway, to get back on topic, I got a question. Did they nerf BBL damage that comes from a lightning rod? I know they nerfed the AoE damage around Rachel to 2200, but what about lightning rod detonation damage? I'd actually like to know that, too. Might not make too big a difference if they didn't nerf that, though, seeing as how the frog prorates BBL insanely hard at the moment (unless they changed that in the third test or something).
KaiAskari Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 lol. The Arakune yelping is almost ear-piercing, even though it's almost all text. One of the guys that helped get the CS: General Discussion thread locked is one in my usual play group... but I didn't feel the need to try to interject anything, due to it being a near-general Arakune over-emotion flux. Stupid blod needs to be less amorphous with his player's feelings. On the flip-side, I had to resist saying anything about how nice it is that the majority of us Rachel players are taking everything with a grain of salt and keeping it calm. We're still loke-testing, after all. I agree on the j2c thing, even if it's been explained how awesome it is in CT by Soniti and kro_ and such... I use it a lot. Especially against a Tager... lol. I shall miss it greatly if it remains useless. Edit: In the event that Rachel is reduced to keep away/zoning near exclusively, though, does anyone have any speculation on how we will go about adjusting our playstyle, based on what we know right now, to make her effective? I ask this just because I know I won't be giving her up completely, even if I change mains - - - which I don't suspect I will. *is the only Rachel player in his normal player group*
Ssuusshhii Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Man, it's funny to take peaks at all the cry babies in the nu forums seeing as how they werent hit by a nerf train like rachel jin and noel...and especially in noel seeing as how they werent that great to begin with....it's funny how they think Nu wasn't all that great to begin with and how haku should be getting dmg nefs blah blah blah blah but anyways..... I doubt most of these changes will stay, they really had a cople of beers and thought "hey lets just nerf everything OP about rchel and do something jut to get them mad like make j2c completely useless" making wind more valuable and a few of the changes already made would be all right, all i want is her old j2c back and some sort of way to get out of pressure aside from wind your ass out of there No one is complaining in the Nu forums last I checked. In fact, most of us are laughing our ass off at how we totally dodged the nerf bat.
Tari Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 ... Edit: In the event that Rachel is reduced to keep away/zoning near exclusively, though, does anyone have any speculation on how we will go about adjusting our playstyle, based on what we know right now, to make her effective? I ask this just because I know I won't be giving her up completely, even if I change mains - - - which I don't suspect I will. *is the only Rachel player in his normal player group* I don't know about the others, but I chose Rachel as my main because of her character design (though her CT playstyle is fairly awesome). If her playstyle changes, at least I still get to have the same lo--. Now, if they suddenly made her into an adult, then I'd be really annoyed. Anyway, it's sort of hard to say how things will change, at the moment. I mean, it's still possible to cancel j.2c into 214b for the pumpkin (though it's apparently slower to come out, now?), so air combos don't seem to be taking too large of a hit outside of the loss of j.2c -> j.c. If they actually nerf out j.2c, I guess there'll be a lot less rushdown and a lot more pumpkin and seeding going on. I'm assuming that's why they added the aerial Sword Iris, sped up the aerial BBL, and made it possible to activate the poles before they fully form. Doesn't really explain the pumpkin nerfs, though. The frog speed nerf barely effects me, to be quite honest. If I toss him out randomly, it's just because I want him to be between me and my opponent. I don't really care too greatly exactly how fast he moves towards them, and as the frog combos still work, it's hard to complain. The timer is a bit irritating, seeing as how it's no longer possible to combo back into a frog from a frog->super, but meh. I can live with that. I do wish they hadn't nerfed BBL's base damage and made George pro-rate it to nothingness (300 damage from a BBL, really?), though. Mostly, I just want j.2c to cancel into something useful... though, if they give us some better zoning stuff, I guess I'd be okay with that, too. I'm just addicted to j.2c. Somewhat related, but does Rachel fall during her aerial Sword Iris, or does she just hover in place? Was wondering if it'd be possible to cancel into it from j.2c near the ground. I mostly have no idea what I'm talking about, here, but it would be awesome if someone would humour me~. /if anything seems weird, blame it on the fact that I have yet to sleep. No one is complaining in the Nu forums last I checked. In fact, most of us are laughing our ass off at how we totally dodged the nerf bat. That's sort of the impression I have of Nu's changes. I'm still going to sub her (and Bang), because her actual playstyle hasn't really changed.
kro_ Posted October 21, 2009 Posted October 21, 2009 Edit: In the event that Rachel is reduced to keep away/zoning near exclusively, though, does anyone have any speculation on how we will go about adjusting our playstyle, based on what we know right now, to make her effective? I've thought about it. Her offense would probably be based on zoning and hit-and-run. You can still follow up pumpkin to start high-low-throw mixup with 6d 4b/2b or j.3db/j.3db whiff/2b. Since they weakened OS throw, throwing should become more viable too. The shorter blockstun on pumpkin might allow for green throws in situations where you'd normally get purple throws. But if they manage to block whatever you did, you'll either have to back off with 5b IAD backwards or continue pressuring only if the pumpkin is in the right spot. The shorter movement of the pumpkin might actually help for the latter. Also, ending blockstrings with 236a to push the opponent back far enough to wind the pumpkin forward again will probably become more common. If you get 236a CH, then you can wind pumpkin forward and combo it. I do it a lot in CT. Something like: wind pumpkin > mixup > 236a if blocked > repeat/run away That kind of offense requires a slow but steady use of wind. But with the changes to how wind meter regenerates, it's not exactly something Rachel can keep up. So I don't know if it'll be useful in CS. The mixups aren't nearly as fast either. j.2c could still be useful if the opponent is about to get hit by a frog, but that's not exactly common. We would also have to make the choice between using frog for zoning/oki or for combos. I'll probably end up using the former more often. One good thing is that you can catch people with aerial sword iris if they chase you when you back off. I'd have fun with that. I think tempest dalia has invincibility on startup and leaves you at frame advantage on block? If so, then at least she has a damaging option to break pressure now. A lot depends on just how bad they nerfed pumpkin and whether or not they change what you can do after j.2c on hit. Allowing only chair on hit is the stupidest thing I've read so far in loketest changes. Endless j.2c and frog combo into frog oki won't come back, imo. Regardless, playing defensively with her hasn't changed much while playing offensively has changed from low risk/high reward to medium risk/low reward. It's not worth it to rush with Rachel with her current changes. The number of chances she has to mount an offense are limited further (wind meter changes) and the probability of landing mixups went down significantly against anyone with decent reaction time (j.2c changes). I'll probably start playing my other characters more to get my rushdown fix if nothing changes. Tsubaki seems pretty cool and I like her voice, which was the same thing that drew me to Rachel initially. But I'll still main Rachel unless Tsubaki manages to make me fall in love with her style.
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