Tari Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 @blade: I was the one asking about 4b. Thanks for the news. Sucks, but not unexpected at all. Also, I wonder if a 5cc wallbounce 6c 3d j.c land (<- is this still necessary?) BBL will work? I know it works off of 6a 6c in CT, but it's a bit weird because of landing positioning. In the CS setup, it sounds like the 6c starts off a bit futher out from the opponent, which might make it... less idiotic to attempt? Argh. Seriously praying this game finds its way to WA soon. I think the guy in our area's going to get stampeded by DL folks, Polka, haha. xD
Kuuhaku Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 I should stop reading up information on Rachel. Every time I always hear bad news. Her match up against Tager is (Rachel) 3.5 to (Tager) 6.5. Apparently, he owns Rachel's sub-par zoning pretty well. Guess that's one thing I'll be looking at to see if I can fix.
Tari Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 I should stop reading up information on Rachel. Every time I always hear bad news. Her match up against Tager is (Rachel) 3.5 to (Tager) 6.5. Apparently, he owns Rachel's sub-par zoning pretty well. Guess that's one thing I'll be looking at to see if I can fix. I think it'll hurt, but we'll probably still be able to play a halfway decent keep-away game with 6b, 6a, and 2c? :8/:
Spirit Juice Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 When I read that Tager vs Rachel is 6.5 for Tager, that was the nail on the coffin for me. I'm done with this character until the next version. RIP Rachel.
Konton Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 I wouldn't put too much faith in these first few weeks of analysis. Remember Carl was considered low tier when CT first came out.
ryokoalways Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 People really need to stop using that argument. It's weak and it hinders common sense. Rachel is bad, it doesn't matter how many weeks you give her, she will still be bad. Now it's just is she playable or not.
Konton Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 People really need to stop using that argument. It's weak and it hinders common sense. Rachel is bad, it doesn't matter how many weeks you give her, she will still be bad. Now it's just is she playable or not. Your comment isn't exactly backed by substance either. There is allot to be examined. Shit, we don't even have frame data yet.
kro_ Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 When I read that Tager vs Rachel is 6.5 for Tager, that was the nail on the coffin for me. I'm done with this character until the next version. RIP Rachel. I don't blame you. I'll try her for awhile in tournaments and stuff but I'll probably have a backup character for loser's bracket. Too bad that backup will probably be Tsubaki, who isn't that much better off. At least I get to accuse others for top-tier bullshit for a change.
ryokoalways Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Your comment isn't exactly backed by substance either. There is allot to be examined. Shit, we don't even have frame data yet. Explain to me how knowing specific frame data would help in this instance. All her weaknesses are blatant. That's why it's easy for everyone to see that she is so poorly designed in the first place. As for backing it up, I have plenty of top player opinions I can draw from. The fact is the developers completely fucked up when they were working on rachel.
Lastblade Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 She feels playable at best right now but I dunno honestly. She has an ok counter style playstyle right (Atleast thats the way I've been winning with her) and her 2C is a bit faster to start up. Only thing I still think needs to be looked into, is that her 214C command (Air Iris) has been canceling some of my recovery when theres no poles out during pressure. As I said earlier, it may be coincidence or fault by my opponents, but it feels odd.
Kuuhaku Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 People really need to stop using that argument. It's weak and it hinders common sense. Rachel is bad, it doesn't matter how many weeks you give her, she will still be bad. Now it's just is she playable or not. I hate it when I'm right. On that note- since the system for bursting is now two bursts per match period. I really wonder how that's going to pan out for Rachel (though probably badly). It's not my fault that I'm hoping that it'll be somehow useful to her. ._.;
Lastblade Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 About as useful as it is to everyone else it seems. Either you burst in the 1st round or not. If you burst in the 1st round, and expect to win the 2nd round, DO NOT BURST. If you burst in round 1 and 2, you CAN NOT burst in round 3. I don't think that's character specific :P Anyhow, I think it'll just come down to... Do you want to play her or not. Not to mention, right now the game feels to be more SKILL > CHARCTER. Edit: She can probably annoy ppl so much they'll burst more often then she does
Kuuhaku Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 It's also pretty funny seeing that Japanese matches are first to three instead of two. Bursting without a reeeeally good reason = bad idea bear. It'd actually be a good thing for her if it was CT Rachel. Then people can't burst corner 2-3 rod BBL set ups. Too bad those don't really exist (or do nearly as much damage) in CS. ryoko- If possible can you quote or translate a few of the top players for Rachel's impression of her?
killionaire Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Explain to me how knowing specific frame data would help in this instance. All her weaknesses are blatant. That's why it's easy for everyone to see that she is so poorly designed in the first place. As for backing it up, I have plenty of top player opinions I can draw from. The fact is the developers completely fucked up when they were working on rachel. I've pretty much figured this much out already.. Well, only thing left to do is figure out what we can do... EDIT: I wonder if the robo-ky thing was ever as bad as this... I vaguely recall there was one GG iteration about robo-ky getting heavily nerfed.. I only heard references to it from one guy here once, so I'm not sure if it even exists.
Soniti Posted November 28, 2009 Author Posted November 28, 2009 I don't blame you. I'll try her for awhile in tournaments and stuff but I'll probably have a backup character for loser's bracket. Too bad that backup will probably be Tsubaki, who isn't that much better off. At least I get to accuse others for top-tier bullshit for a change. LOL once again we intend to play the same characters. This tends to happen in a lot of games
kro_ Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 LOL once again we intend to play the same characters. This tends to happen in a lot of games Pretty odd, huh. And we play differently too. Maybe it will help us pick up on more things again this time.
Tari Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Pretty odd, huh. And we play differently too. Maybe it will help us pick up on more things again this time. Maybe it's a Californian thing~. All this stuff considered, I'm going to try to still main Rachel, but I'm definitely going to work on subbing Tsubaki effectively, just in case I can't adapt to the loli's new playstyle effectively.
Kuuhaku Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Well, Tari. If we can't put our heads together with wuku to think of something, at least we'll have fun trying to figure out subs in case it doesn't work out. And... no matter how hard I try to like Tsubaki, I just can't seem to. Hazama and Carl have a lot more appeal for me (though Carl more since I do less poke damage and running away and more high damage mixups which is actually what I liked a lot about BBCT).
Tari Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Well, Tari. If we can't put our heads together with wuku to think of something, at least we'll have fun trying to figure out subs in case it doesn't work out. And... no matter how hard I try to like Tsubaki, I just can't seem to. Hazama and Carl have a lot more appeal for me (though Carl more since I do less poke damage and running away and more high damage mixups which is actually what I liked a lot about BBCT). Heh, very true. I think we'll work something out for Rachel, though she's still going to be all sorts of crappy. And I only started liking Tsubaka after seing good fanart of her, hahaha. I'm such a simpleton~. And since I was looking for any reason to stop playing Ragna, I'll take it. XD
mynus Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 (Alzarath posting) wtf @ soniti/kro.. you guys picking up tsubaki too? LOL
kreichjr Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 So, I had another thought about a variation of the 5b 5cdc 236b IAD j.b j.c 214c sj.c dj.c 236a combo... In CT, I never used to air dash, I used to do dash up j.b j.c which worked on most of the cast. Maybe we could do something like 5b 5cdc 236b dash up j.b j.c 1d dj.c dash forward 6a 632146c follow up... I don't know, I never got into trying the j.c 2d dj.c combos. Just another idea to throw out there... On a personal note, I may pick up Litchi, I enjoyed playing her in CT, and my friend Markus has a damn good one, and I tend to play characters he plays.
Jaeyu Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Oh wow reading this thread made me sad. Poor Rachel, what have they done to you. So much for stopping the flood. At this point, I guess it's just damage control now. At least I get to accuse others for top-tier bullshit for a change. Lollll that and at least there'll be a LOT less Rachel players now.
AlwaysDizzy Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Oh wow reading this thread made me sad. Poor Rachel, what have they done to you. So much for stopping the flood. At this point, I guess it's just damage control now. Lollll that and at least there'll be a LOT less Rachel players now. I'm staying on that loli train son
Spirit Juice Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 I wouldn't put too much faith in these first few weeks of analysis. Remember Carl was considered low tier when CT first came out. Yeah, but Carl rising in the tier list was solely because of the clap loop. It was obvious that the clap loop (very much practically an infinite except for some characters) was not intended, which was why they took it out. Now if Rachel has some undiscovered bug/overlooked mechanic with her moves that can make her deadly, she'll definitely rise in tiers. However, her current weaknesses (and pretty much lack of strengths either) are very obvious. She has poor damage output, poor zoning, and practically no mix up at all. I expect her to get a little better with time, but I really don't see her rising above C or C- tier. I have a feeling H.H is going to drop her in the end in favor of someone better (probably someone top tier like Bang or Litchi until the next version) within the next couple of months. In Slash, he dropped Dizzy in favor of Ky, and Dizzy wasn't nearly as bad as Rachel is looking right now. At least Dizzy could zone well and had some sort of mix up with decent damage options.
Kuuhaku Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 I'm still waiting to see a video of Shadow play Rachel. I could possibly be waiting a very long time. Maybe if her damage output was a little higher (like she could consistantly break 3k) and her zoning wasn't as mangled, she'd be all right. Not good, but tourney viable. However, with the proration of all her attacks, the first factor changing is very slim. And considering how far they went out of their way to destroy her zoning, the second's not looking likely either. Uh... I haven't played GG outside of GGXX. But has there been any case from an ASW game where a good character got nerfed to hell, but panned out to mid-tier in later editions? I'm just hoping that she's not going to become another Johnny (even with relatively no GG experience, I've heard of the sad tale that is Johnny).
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