[CS1] Bang Discussion and Question Thread

[Zevali]

So if I want to look cool and badass, I should spam ashura in the middle of combos? Sweet. Bang's already strong enough, it should be okay to waste 50 heat here and there like this, right?

[Dacidbro]

If you want to look like an idiot for losing by 2k damage when you took Ashura over Daifunka, yeah. Lol.

[Dacidbro]

Just realize there's no hit confirm I usually take "jB jB jC" or "jB jB j623B > 6C/5C reset"

[CrimsonDisaster]

The combo looks awesome, but it doesn't give you oki...if you're not going for oki you can do max dmg version of the normal RC combo for 4733 iirc anyway and it's not character specific. (Unless there's someone the j.B>j.4C>dj.B>dj.4C>dj.623B doesn't work on.)

If you're going for max damage, [jB > 4C JC djB xx 236A] is better as it poisons.

jC ender gives the option of throwing nails to pressure their tech, which is closer to "oki" than j623B ender.

For reference, 623C(2) RC 5C > 6A xx 623B, dash 5B > 2B JC [j4C xx 623B], land, 5B > 2B JC [jB > 4C JC djB xx 236A] is ~4.9k + poison. 5.1k + poison off j623C(2) RC. The only reasons to do dash 6C variants are if you're lazy or if you want oki... but chances are you landed your command grab off oki/tech trap anyways so why not go for damage and kill them?

Also easy big damage off FC 623B is just Daifunka into normal air combo followup for like 5k or something. Trading 100% bar for 1k more damage and putting them in the corner, essentially, as you can do his current max damage combo off 623B for ~4.1k + poison or something to that effect. Not that you'll get a ton of opportunities to just throw out 623B and have it hit, lol

[NumeroGaijin]

The only time you should use Ashura is after Daifunka when you need the extra to WIN or should I say when you know it will kill the opponent or leave them with hardly a bit of life in their life bar.

[Dacidbro]

If it would leave them with any life at all, you're better off not using it and finishing them off with pressure with the option of rapids. Ashura is technically unsafe on hit, no matter what you will be forced to block or backdash after it against a skilled opponent.

[faultydefense]

Not that you'll get a ton of opportunities to just throw out 623B and have it hit, lol

all day baby

[huey253]

ASHURA IS SAFE, its been tested, i saw the frame data for it. if somebody quick techs and uses 5A it WILL wiff. a slightly slower attack will hit but thats because you MORE then likely weren't blocking:arg:

[Dacidbro]

Crimson, the argument that you got that command grab off oki so don't get oki again doesn't make much sense.. If you were benefited by oki once, it may (will) benefit you again. Really, Bang THRIVES on oki.

[Dacidbro]

no matter what you will be forced to block or backdash after it against a skilled opponent.

see above

You still don't get the time to start a move like they do, meaning you put yourself at a 1 frame situation. You have to block or retreat, both end your pressure or start theirs, even worse.

[ZONG_one]

If no one gets you tonight, I will, David. Down for some rape? Also.. Fuck Ashura. Honestly 100% of the time, I down tech. Then it's throw/2B. If I get the throw, then it's only as safe as your teching ability. If huey is right, then I guess the times I've gotten 2B, they just weren't blocking. But that move looks SOO unsafe, animation wise. It looks SOOO unsafe, that it can't possibly be safe.

[Dacidbro]

It's figuratively even.. That is, you literally can not possibly get a 'free hit', but Bang starts being able to do things like TEN frames after you. So you have all the setup time in the world, especially with Nirvana tricks.

[Zevali]

If you want to look like an idiot for losing by 2k damage when you took Ashura over Daifunka, yeah. Lol.

I'm doing it then.

[Dacidbro]

I'm doing it then.

[ShoMeYaMoves]

If you're going for max damage, [jB > 4C JC djB xx 236A] is better as it poisons.

jC ender gives the option of throwing nails to pressure their tech, which is closer to "oki" than j623B ender.

For reference, 623C(2) RC 5C > 6A xx 623B, dash 5B > 2B JC [j4C xx 623B], land, 5B > 2B JC [jB > 4C JC djB xx 236A] is ~4.9k + poison. 5.1k + poison off j623C(2) RC. The only reasons to do dash 6C variants are if you're lazy or if you want oki... but chances are you landed your command grab off oki/tech trap anyways so why not go for damage and kill them?

Also easy big damage off FC 623B is just Daifunka into normal air combo followup for like 5k or something. Trading 100% bar for 1k more damage and putting them in the corner, essentially, as you can do his current max damage combo off 623B for ~4.1k + poison or something to that effect. Not that you'll get a ton of opportunities to just throw out 623B and have it hit, lol

Well gentlemen, I never thought I'd see the day a Bang player didn't want oki. Still, one of the great things about CS Bang is that you can play him however you like so if you prefer A nail to oki, then that's your decision.

My argument for oki would be: Bang has the best oki mixup in the game imho and letting 500-1000 damage slip through my fingers in exchange for a reset that could do 2000-4000 meterless damage is a pretty easy decision for me, especially now that you can't special cancel out of roll anymore (A real thorn in the side of CT Bang's oki game). The only exception for me is when they've bursted, have barely any life left, and it's obvious you can just finish them off with a higher damage ender.

That's my two cents, anyway.

[Dacidbro]

Seriously, it works well. Lol. I didn't realize how much of my game I was losing until I used true oki for a day and got like 8 perfects.

[The_Grither_]

It's figuratively even..

That is, you literally can not possibly get a 'free hit', but Bang starts being able to do things like TEN frames after you. So you have all the setup time in the world, especially with Nirvana tricks.

Hold on...are u saying this as in ur bang or ur fighting bang...who has all the start-up time bang or his enemy

[Reioumu]

There's a reason why the best Bang in the world goes for oki 90% of the time <____<

[CrimsonDisaster]

Did I post "never do oki?" No, I posted that the whole point of oki is to set up more damage- but if you get that big damage opportunity, why not go for big damage? Sometimes you need to hedge your bets and take optimal damage + decent setup over optimal setup. If you did a combo that didn't suck that gives oki and leaves you with enough bar for a command grab RC combo, they are probably down ~3-4k life at the very least, probably closer to ~6k-7k+ total damage before you have meter. Command grab RC into max damage for 5k, they're dead. Or you could go for oki; if you've consistently been giving up damage for oki, and then do that again when your oki leads to the big payoff (command grab RC, in this case), they might survive it and you'll need to hit them again. If you're somehow sitting on this huge pile of meter and need to do 10k+ to make a comeback, by all means go for the oki ender and good luck. If you burn your first 50% meter of the round on command grab RC or whatever, maybe it's worth it to consider going for better damage. I personally think that if I'm going through all the trouble of getting you to sit still and get grabbed AND burning 50% bar on it, I might as well get the most out of it; if you don't feel like your neutral game is good enough despite having nails and ridiculous normals to get back in with, then by all means go for oki more often! The reason the best Bang in the world goes for oki 90% of the time is because he probably has the best Bang oki mind games in the world, and he's playing against people with far more experience dealing with Bang. You probably don't have nearly as strong of an oki game or competition to use that oki on, so why should YOU do oki ender 90% of the time? I've gotten double/triple perfects in sets where I did exactly zero oki enders, does that mean you should never do them too? Some people are just better at dealing with the structure of being knocked down and then mixed up, but fall apart when they have to deal with pressure out of an air tech or something. Sometimes a knockdown is just frame advantage and sometimes frame advantage is just as good as knockdown. For people advocating oki because Bang's mixup is "the best oki mixup in the game," you sure seem against actually mixing up the defensive looks your opponent has to watch out for :V Also Litchi's oki is the best :V

[ShoMeYaMoves]

No need to get all touchy. =/

Did I post "never do oki?" No, I posted that the whole point of oki is to set up more damage- but if you get that big damage opportunity, why not go for big damage? Sometimes you need to hedge your bets and take optimal damage + decent setup over optimal setup

Like I said, you can play CS Bang however you like and still be highly effective provided you have good abare. I just prefer the optimal setup since my oki game is where I shine. =D

If you did a combo that didn't suck that gives oki and leaves you with enough bar for a command grab RC combo, they are probably down ~3-4k life at the very least, probably closer to ~6k-7k+ total damage before you have meter. Command grab RC into max damage for 5k, they're dead. Or you could go for oki; if you've consistently been giving up damage for oki, and then do that again when your oki leads to the big payoff (command grab RC, in this case), they might survive it and you'll need to hit them again.

Two oki combos will do at least 6K then you can do a daifunka combo or RC or w/e and it will end it anyway. I think you're making it seem as if you have to make a huge sacrifice in damage for oki, which you don't. Like I said in my earlier post, if the max damage will end the round then by all means do it lol. I personally don't see any reason to do max damage before then, though.

The reason the best Bang in the world goes for oki 90% of the time is because he probably has the best Bang oki mind games in the world, and he's playing against people with far more experience dealing with Bang. You probably don't have nearly as strong of an oki game or competition to use that oki on, so why should YOU do oki ender 90% of the time? I've gotten double/triple perfects in sets where I did exactly zero oki enders, does that mean you should never do them too?

Some people are just better at dealing with the structure of being knocked down and then mixed up, but fall apart when they have to deal with pressure out of an air tech or something. Sometimes a knockdown is just frame advantage and sometimes frame advantage is just as good as knockdown. For people advocating oki because Bang's mixup is "the best oki mixup in the game," you sure seem against actually mixing up the defensive looks your opponent has to watch out for :V

Ad hominem? Oh my. Honestly, if the people you're playing get reset more easily from an air tech than from oki then you're probably playing people who are mashing the tech and get CH for free damage. Your argument is essentially: "Why would I do oki against people when I can hit them anyway after an air tech?" My counter-argument is: "That doesn't work when you play people who actually block after teching or don't tech predictably, whereas oki is considerably more under your control with potentially much higher rewards."

Also Litchi's oki is the best :V

Litchi has great oki too, but she doesn't have a command grab, double overhead, tick command grab, or a godly crossup like j.4B. She has the stick which forces you to block or reversal, but that's about it...you block it and the following overhead or low and that's it. Bang forces a guess whereas you can react to anything Litchi does. Litchi is better than Bang in CS, but oki isn't the reason.

[CrimsonDisaster]

random combo idea that appeared like once in BBS and hasn't been mentioned or discussed since, which we haven't managed to get to work yet: 623C(which hit?? didn't say) RC nail super on Tager. The post said something to the effect of it doing like 6k off ground, ~8k off air grab because Tager is fat and eats all the nails. Nobody really said anything about it and we couldn't figure out how to make it work, if it even does. Seems like something interesting to explore, but $1 a game is a bit much just to try to make a goofy combo work. Litchi gets stupid stuff like unseeable fuzzies, double/triple overhead/low, much stronger tech traps, jB crossup into silliness, etc. All of this off pretty much every combo, with pretty much every combo leaving her opponent in the corner and set up for oki/tech trap/stickman/etc. And to top it all off she has ridiculously strong pressure with a bunch of hit-confirm points for the times when she doesn't land her initial mixup, with the option of going into even more mixup if she wants. If you look at only the initial mixup, Bang's oki is "better" solely because of command grab... though he lacks Litchi's option select tech traps, and has to give up damage from combos that are already weaker than Litchi's to get his oki. And since it's not realistic to just look at the first mixup, Litchi has way better second/third tier (and onward) mixup and better pressure/hit-confirm at whatever point. Anyhow, you can pretend like only bad players ever get hit by air tech traps, that's like pretending people always get hit by oki. Or you can look at fairly basic facts, like how most characters don't have an air DP or reliable move that stops you from putting them into blockstun after tech, which of course means more possibilities for Bang to land his hilariously high damage air command grab if you read their tech properly. Also the fact that air options don't reset after an air tech, so if you caught someone in mid-air with, say, reading their airdash attack and countering with CH jB, then their options after a tech are even more limited. It's not impossible or even improbable to create situations where your opponent is either forced to tech into an air-to-air blockstring where Bang lands first and gets to threaten air-unblockable or go into his mixup with essentially the same frame advantage as if he had been doing it to someone getting up from a ground tech, or low altitude late tech into Bang getting more frame advantage and still having two airdashes to mix up with, or teching after hitting the ground and essentially giving Bang "true oki," or not teching, which of course creates its own set of problems. Again, sometimes a knockdown is just frame advantage and sometimes frame advantage is just as good as a knockdown. If I'm playing against someone coming from, say, a 3S background, someone who is used to the whole "get knocked down, deal with oki mixup for a bit, hopefully block it and then work from there" model of play, I'm going to force them into uncomfortable territory by putting them into air tech trap situations. A GG player is going to be more comfortable in that spot, so I'll probably do more standard oki enders but keep in mind that GG players are ever wary of having their tech airthrown, so I'd go CH fishing if I go for air tech trap. Arcana players are scared of air unblockables, IaMP/EFZ players are more hesitant to tech but are more used to dealing with BS oki, etc. etc. Pretty much everything you can do to take away your opponent's mental safety net of "okay he's doing this so now I can prepare for what's coming next" is a worth doing. Fighting games aren't as cut-and-dry as "do TRUE OKI unless the combo will kill them and they have no burst."

[Heroic_Legacy]

Litchi gets stupid stuff like unseeable fuzzies, double/triple overhead/low, much stronger tech traps, jB crossup into silliness, etc. All of this off pretty much every combo, with pretty much every combo leaving her opponent in the corner and set up for oki/tech trap/stickman/etc.

Bang has that too if you use true oki. The difference is, in the corner, he can't cross you up. Which means his oki game is from MIDSCREEN whereas Litchi is best in the corner. And remember. Bang gets even more stronger combos into true oki in the corner. Seriously, learn your character before you start bitching about him.

If you look at only the initial mixup, Bang's oki is "better" solely because of command grab... though he lacks Litchi's option select tech traps, and has to give up damage from combos that are already weaker than Litchi's to get his oki. And since it's not realistic to just look at the first mixup, Litchi has way better second/third tier (and onward) mixup and better pressure/hit-confirm at whatever point.

Goddamn bro. If you are trying to say that Bang DOESN'T have the deepest oki game in the game, you might as well quit maining Bang. Even I know not to get caught on the ground while Bang is coming in on you. The way you make it sound is like "lol block one mixup get out free." Whereas with Litchi it's utterly different from your perspective? I think you are getting pressure strings and mixups wrong.

Anyhow, you can pretend like only bad players ever get hit by air tech traps, that's like pretending people always get hit by oki. Or you can look at fairly basic facts, like how most characters don't have an air DP or reliable move that stops you from putting them into blockstun after tech, which of course means more possibilities for Bang to land his hilariously high damage air command grab if you read their tech properly. Also the fact that air options don't reset after an air tech, so if you caught someone in mid-air with, say, reading their airdash attack and countering with CH jB, then their options after a tech are even more limited.

Maybe you just are too predictable and every true oki wakeup you get they block it. So, get good. But the way you make it seem, is that THEY ARE ALWAYS TECHING IN THE AIR. If you think "Aw man, air tech. Sweet damage off of 623C- What? No tech? It whiffed? Oh shi-" Cause they neutral teched late and are on the ground now with, Tager's 2C persay. GRATS MAN, YOU JUST ATE FREE DAMAGE FOR BEING OVERLY AGGRESSIVE.

Lesson here is: Not everyone techs the same place at the same time all day. It's a rock/paper/scissors game with much greater risk to you.

It's not impossible or even improbable to create situations where your opponent is either forced to tech into an air-to-air blockstring where Bang lands first and gets to threaten air-unblockable or go into his mixup with essentially the same frame advantage as if he had been doing it to someone getting up from a ground tech, or low altitude late tech into Bang getting more frame advantage and still having two airdashes to mix up with, or teching after hitting the ground and essentially giving Bang "true oki," or not teching, which of course creates its own set of problems.

No it isn't impossible or improbable. But it isn't going to work for every character. You are going to get hit out of it by a distortion if you do it to the wrong character. Or because you know there are moves in the game that just ruin this entire idea of air tech mixup games/blockstrings. If you even try to go blockstringing anyone worth their salt, instant block >you are getting airthrown. Or worse, you end with j.C and a Tager 720s you for free on landing.

Again, sometimes a knockdown is just frame advantage and sometimes frame advantage is just as good as a knockdown. If I'm playing against someone coming from, say, a 3S background, someone who is used to the whole "get knocked down, deal with oki mixup for a bit, hopefully block it and then work from there" model of play, I'm going to force them into uncomfortable territory by putting them into air tech trap situations. A GG player is going to be more comfortable in that spot, so I'll probably do more standard oki enders but keep in mind that GG players are ever wary of having their tech airthrown, so I'd go CH fishing if I go for air tech trap. Arcana players are scared of air unblockables, IaMP/EFZ players are more hesitant to tech but are more used to dealing with BS oki, etc. etc.

This has nothing to do with playing Blazblue at all. I'm guaranteeing that all those games have different oki styles. But they aren't playing this game. If they are incorporating those games in BB, they are going to lose because they aren't playing BB.

Pretty much everything you can do to take away your opponent's mental safety net of "okay he's doing this so now I can prepare for what's coming next" is a worth doing. Fighting games aren't as cut-and-dry as "do TRUE OKI unless the combo will kill them and they have no burst."

T6: Let's land a juggle that causes wall hit. Then let them deal with the oki mixup afterwards which I'll hit them back into the wall for the death combo that they can easily ukemi out of if they were alive.

SFIV: Let's FADC my blahblahblah into an untechable knockdown so I get my oki safe jump to block their reversal shoryuken and punish in return. Oh wait, already dying? Time to pull out some 9 hit FADC combo that does 400 damage. GG bro.

GGAC: Aw yeah bro. Landed slidehead. Gonna slide up next to you with hammerfall cancel. Combo into heat. Oh wait, DAMN YOU RIGHT NEXT TO ME. MORE MINDGAMES MIXUPS. Aw yeah. Got that tension bar. Free slidehead. More oki. More damage. You gonna die next time bro.

MvC2: Mags gonna combo to infinite, keep you guessing where his next reset will be. Oh, okay you've got 50% and I've got bar to spare. Here's some DHC on your way out. Next plz.

[ShoMeYaMoves]

Litchi gets stupid stuff like unseeable fuzzies, double/triple overhead/low, much stronger tech traps, jB crossup into silliness, etc. All of this off pretty much every combo, with pretty much every combo leaving her opponent in the corner and set up for oki/tech trap/stickman/etc. And to top it all off she has ridiculously strong pressure with a bunch of hit-confirm points for the times when she doesn't land her initial mixup, with the option of going into even more mixup if she wants.

If you look at only the initial mixup, Bang's oki is "better" solely because of command grab... though he lacks Litchi's option select tech traps, and has to give up damage from combos that are already weaker than Litchi's to get his oki. And since it's not realistic to just look at the first mixup, Litchi has way better second/third tier (and onward) mixup and better pressure/hit-confirm at whatever point.

I'm glad you agree Bang has better oki. The command grab is extremely important.

Anyhow, you can pretend like only bad players ever get hit by air tech traps, that's like pretending people always get hit by oki. Or you can look at fairly basic facts, like how most characters don't have an air DP or reliable move that stops you from putting them into blockstun after tech, which of course means more possibilities for Bang to land his hilariously high damage air command grab if you read their tech properly. Also the fact that air options don't reset after an air tech, so if you caught someone in mid-air with, say, reading their airdash attack and countering with CH jB, then their options after a tech are even more limited.

I never said anything about tech traps, nor did you before this. It's one thing to deliberately set up a tech trap where you'll land first (or be on the ground anyway, like the old d.5B after CT bnb) and be able to react to them teching or not teching, it's quite another to do a high altitude max damage combo or A nail ender that means you probably won't get that reset through anything but dumb luck.

It's not impossible or even improbable to create situations where your opponent is either forced to tech into an air-to-air blockstring where Bang lands first and gets to threaten air-unblockable or go into his mixup with essentially the same frame advantage as if he had been doing it to someone getting up from a ground tech, or low altitude late tech into Bang getting more frame advantage and still having two airdashes to mix up with, or teching after hitting the ground and essentially giving Bang "true oki," or not teching, which of course creates its own set of problems.

I don't think it's impossible either, but I don't understand why you'd prefer it to true oki. Nothing you've mentioned is in any way superior to Bang's ground oki mixup. Air unblockables? At this point in BB's lifespan, everyone is Barriering ground blockstrings while in the air anyway. Frame advantage? I'd take true oki over brief frame advantage any day.

Again, sometimes a knockdown is just frame advantage and sometimes frame advantage is just as good as a knockdown. If I'm playing against someone coming from, say, a 3S background, someone who is used to the whole "get knocked down, deal with oki mixup for a bit, hopefully block it and then work from there" model of play, I'm going to force them into uncomfortable territory by putting them into air tech trap situations. A GG player is going to be more comfortable in that spot, so I'll probably do more standard oki enders but keep in mind that GG players are ever wary of having their tech airthrown, so I'd go CH fishing if I go for air tech trap. Arcana players are scared of air unblockables, IaMP/EFZ players are more hesitant to tech but are more used to dealing with BS oki, etc. etc.

Pretty much everything you can do to take away your opponent's mental safety net of "okay he's doing this so now I can prepare for what's coming next" is a worth doing. Fighting games aren't as cut-and-dry as "do TRUE OKI unless the combo will kill them and they have no burst."

I don't see how the player's previous fighting game background will have bearing on their ability to yomi Bang's oki game, especially when it really is a guessing game. But hey, if you can get air resets off max damage combos consistently, more power to you. But as for me, I'll stick with true oki so long as it keeps winning me games.

[faultydefense]

i think it was blown a little out of proportion

i'm pretty sure there was a post last page or 2 ago, that said always go for oki and he gave reasons not to

a few things of note though on recent posts on how true oki is always better

-its called mix-up for a reason, leaving them in the air is one way to do that

-jin/litchi in the air can't deal with bang 3 inches in front of their face

- max damage combos will leave you at neutral, and potentially leave them poisoned...i fail to see how this is a bad thing, and it takes ALL guessing away from character with some form of reversal option and forces them to come to you, do you realize how much certain match-ups go into your favor when they're forced to chase bang?...haku, hazama, carl, arakune to name a few of the best

- someone mentioned instant blocking, I play people who can IB bang strings all day long, and they're 10000% more comfortable doing it to his ground strings. I think this is a point I can't really get across unless you play the match yourself and get a 5A instant blocked > eat a super...it can happen. believe it or not, and these aren't the players I want to leave in that position.

on the note of people playing the wrong game...you can't tell me some habits don't linger.

coming from tekken, for the longest time i would never roll on wake-up when the opponent was near me

even playing CS now, I have it so ingrained in me that I can't get myself to burst until the end of a round =/

@ heroic - it's not so much rock paper scissors when you have more options that will end in your favor than the opponent who only has one correct guess. In fighting games people DO take risks in exchange for payoffs (i know for a fact you do...), i also don't think you can get air thrown between bang's jump a b and c's, and the fact that all of them go into both nails, drives, bumpers, and when he almost always has an airdash available, means its not really cut and dry dealing with it

and I have no idea what you're talking about with the end of your post

on a somewhat related note

showmeyomoves...i'm getting annoyed with bang's j.4C, you may say its godly, but I know at least half the cast can mash 5A and stuff the cross-up

(i know for a fact ragna, bang, hazama, litchi, haku, and jin can flat out BEAT the cross-up with their 5A, and i think many others will get a trade. I don't think its a leap to say the move had a better hitbox in CT. I don't want to lose it...but I'm rapidly losing faith in it.)

[rei-Scarred]

Sho how often do you get DPd? DPs make me not like oki, but I don't know how it differs in CS. From what I'm understanding you can't just 2D on Ragna's wake up anymore if you are worried because of the unsafe drives. I'll probably be a max damage no oki Bang just because I already use A nail in CT and its pretty much worthless there haha.