[CS1] Bang Discussion and Question Thread

[DaiAndOh]

Sho how often do you get DPd? DPs make me not like oki, but I don't know how it differs in CS. From what I'm understanding you can't just 2D on Ragna's wake up anymore if you are worried because of the unsafe drives. I'll probably be a max damage no oki Bang just because I already use A nail in CT and its pretty much worthless there haha.

Jin's and Litchi's DPs are worse. Tsubaki's isn't so good outside the D version.

Ragna still has INFERNO DIVIDAAAAAAAA though.

[mAc Chaos]

What's "true" oki? As opposed to just oki.

[faultydefense]

it means no matter what they do (outside of burst) after you finish your combo you get to be right on top of them and force them to eat wake-up pressure in general oki can just mean dealing with their tech, or hoping they don't tech until they hit the ground

[Dacidbro]

Why do people take it so personally when they advocate unorthodox strategies that are gimmicky and non-solid?

[ShoMeYaMoves]

Sho how often do you get DPd? DPs make me not like oki, but I don't know how it differs in CS. From what I'm understanding you can't just 2D on Ragna's wake up anymore if you are worried because of the unsafe drives. I'll probably be a max damage no oki Bang just because I already use A nail in CT and its pretty much worthless there haha.

In both CT or CS, it's better to just wait a few frames on wakeup if you suspect a DP to block it than throw the 2D since if they have heat they can RC punish the drive or just punish the drive if they didn't DP in the first place. I don't know anymore about this oki stuff, maybe max damage Bang is better, maybe he isn't. I just like true oki, I guess. Command grab on wakeup is too good sometimes, and barrier cancelling a roll forces you to block low for a few frames in CS so you can get a free overhead, or command grab even, if you have fast fingers.

@FD, I j.4B really early in CS, when I'm right overhead them, since you can jc it anyway if things don't look good. Was 5A stuffing it when you do it closer to the ground?

[faultydefense]

@FD, I j.4B really early in CS, when I'm right overhead them, since you can jc it anyway if things don't look good. Was 5A stuffing it when you do it closer to the ground?

that open area under bang while he's doing j.4B is part of his hitbox, if its an area that can hit the opponent, its also an area that bang could be hit out of it, in fact i think bang's hittable area extends below the area he can hit someone with the move

the people i mentioned all have standing A's near the top of their standing hitbox, cept bang who just has a good 5A

[Dacidbro]

and barrier cancelling a roll forces you to block low for a few frames in CS so you can get a free overhead, or command grab even, if you have fast fingers.

O_o

THAT'S why no one blocks that overhead. I had been wondering.

[CrimsonDisaster]

I don't see how the player's previous fighting game background will have bearing on their ability to yomi Bang's oki game, especially when it really is a guessing game. But hey, if you can get air resets off max damage combos consistently, more power to you. But as for me, I'll stick with true oki so long as it keeps winning me games.

Here is a core problem with your argument; "it's a guessing game," so it's inherently good/better? Like faultydefense said, a lot of times doing frame-advantage-air-tech ender or neutral-poison-max-damage ender takes all the guesswork away and puts you in an advantageous position. If you somehow deny that completely removing guesswork and still having advantage is a very strong option, I dunno what to say to you.

Also, "it's a guessing game," but how do you rig that guessing game in your favor as much as possible? You're acting like Bang gets some 100/100/100 mixup of the gods where they have to guess and you don't, and any experience or pattern recognition they've developed disappears entirely, simply because they're on the ground.

Which is untrue. Oki is a guessing game in your favor, to be sure, but it's still a guessing game for both players. If you can't see how someone's past fighting game experience influences the decisions they make, and how you can use that info to screw with them as hard as possible, then maybe you should think about it a bit more before dismissing it so easily.

If you always go for the same oki ender, you're always playing the guessing game by the same rules... but why should you do that, when Bang has the ability to change the rules whenever he wants? "It gets me wins" doesn't mean "it is the best forever and I should never do anything else." It isn't about better or worse one way or the other, it's about putting everything together to get in your opponent's head.

Completely understandable to be more comfortable going for oki. If that's your comfort zone, might as well do it more often. But there's no harm in trying something different every so often and seeing how it sticks, especially now that your competition knows "hey he's going to knock me down off this and make me guess, better prepare for it."

The entire reason I started doing more air "oki" was because, since I'm a GG player, people who played with me before were comfortable with the idea of "he's going to knock me down and then do some stupid mixup that I'll just have to deal with somehow" right from the start of CT. So I changed my style a bit and the results are hilarious.

Bang is like the trolliest troll character to have ever trolled BB. His stage is even on a bridge :V Sometimes you just have say "I'm Bang, what are you gonna do about it??"

[Dacidbro]

You play the guessing game because you have 4 or 5 safe or primarily safe 50-50's in a row, you would REALLY deliberately throw that away? Until you stop trying to degrade his argument, I'm not going to take you seriously.

[ShoMeYaMoves]

that open area under bang while he's doing j.4B is part of his hitbox, if its an area that can hit the opponent, its also an area that bang could be hit out of it, in fact i think bang's hittable area extends below the area he can hit someone with the move

the people i mentioned all have standing A's near the top of their standing hitbox, cept bang who just has a good 5A

Ah ok, thanks man. I'll have to make sure not to tell anyone about that trick.

Have you been using late crossup j.B instead to avoid the 5A?

[Dacidbro]

Something terrifying to note, all Anti Air moves beat 5A flat out.. tested it today, Rachel's catpunch guard points it, Carl's hat goes through it

[faultydefense]

Ah ok, thanks man. I'll have to make sure not to tell anyone about that trick.

Have you been using late crossup j.B instead to avoid the 5A?

mmm, can't say i play the game often enough to have tried and true answers, but I know the times it happened to me i really just turned to more 2A's to keep them less pokey until i felt safe again. the j.B thing might work, and even if it doesn't its still pretty risky for them to 5A right there so I haven't met anyone who will do it all the time

[CrimsonDisaster]

I've been doing jC to stop people from mashing 5A against j4B, with decent results. jC crosses up as well so it's not like you're losing that part of it, though usually I just do a relatively early jC if I'm really committed to stopping their mashing. Worse comes to worst, late cancel into nails or something on block. Dunno why it would be "terrifying" for Bang's 5A to lose to upper-body invul/guard-point/attribute invul/etc. moves. It's not like Rachel/Carl 6A or 2C or whatever is safe to just throw out and hope they tag a 5A, especially when Bang can punish that whiff on reaction for 3k+.

[Dacidbro]

You don't get out much, do you I would really recommend not acting like a douchebag to the whole board, consider it a friendly reminder that until respect is earned, it is not often given While my word choice was obviously exaggerative, I provided some pretty helpful information. 5A loses to all high invincible moves. Against characters that often lead with those, like Rachel, it is nice to know your 5A is better traded for a 5B

[faultydefense]

You don't get out much, do you

I would really recommend not acting like a douchebag to the whole board, consider it a friendly reminder that until respect is earned, it is not often given

i think you overreacted to "dunno why it would be terrifying"

[tataki]

Hi guys!

Today I started to work on a BBCS sequel to the Low Tier Ninja Hero vid. It will take a totally new direction but I think you guys are going to love it.

If there are any awesome/funny/weird combos you want in, now is the time.

[Zevali]

It's generally better to do j.B -> j.4C in the air than the classic j.A -> j.B from before when you're doing an air combo, right? I'm still too used to the j.A -> j.B patterns. : /

[Dacidbro]

i think you overreacted to "dunno why it would be terrifying"

Why not let the guy fight his own battles?

In the context that he still hasn't apologized for his disrespect to Showmeyamoves, him mocking what I had posted is certainly mildly frustrating. There was no need for him to try to explain a reason why it "wasn't terrifying", but he did anyway, even though I already knew them all. He doesn't take anyone on this board seriously, it seems, which is why I reminded him to respect people's intelligence.

[Dacidbro]

The possibilities are endless.. I don't know how I could pick just a couple Bang can do anything, let your conscience be your guide. If you need particularly bizarre combos, look for ATG. Practical, Showmeyamoves. *shrug*

[BigLeafyTree]

Internet beef. The thing is the risk vs reward. Ending with more damage and a poison nail without true oki is an advantage, but it gives your opponent a way out of Bang's great pressure and gives them a better chance to get the advantage back. For example, I wouldn't let Litchi or Hakumen get away for free because it can be a pain to get back in once you let them go. Arakune maybe, but he can steal matches out of nowhere. It's risk vs reward. True oki is the safest and the least rewarding.

[Dacidbro]

Internet beef.

The thing is the risk vs reward. Ending with more damage and a poison nail without true oki is an advantage, but it gives your opponent a way out of Bang's great pressure and gives them a better chance to get the advantage back. For example, I wouldn't let Litchi or Hakumen get away for free because it can be a pain to get back in once you let them go. Arakune maybe, but he can steal matches out of nowhere. It's risk vs reward. True oki is the safest and the least rewarding.

I completely disagree, true oki is the safest and often most rewarding. Non oki is high risk with sometimes lesser reward. You are guaranteed a small lump sum of damage, whereas oki you are guaranteed a strong positional advantage that can lead to a lump sum of damage 4+ times as much as what you're guaranteed with non oki and put you in the same positional advantage again. In the context of risk reward, true oki is actually the gamble, but it's rigging the dice in your favor.

[Reioumu]

If you're worried about guard points on 5A. Just poke with 5B. It's infinitely better for poking anyway, just no 5C or 2A gatling. Also it's not high risk when you're doing a combo, but it's 'less' reward when you don't go for oki. You should get your terms right.

[BigLeafyTree]

To be clearer, I meant that after the combo if you went for damage over oki, it's risk in exchange for short term advantage. Like Dacid said, a small lump sum of damage in exchange for losing position advantage. In the long run I agree that true oki is the way to go for damage. On the other side of the argument, if you think you can get in without needing the position true oki gives you there's no reason not to be as greedy as you can with damage.

[The_Grither_]

Either way both sides of the uh...discussion have given me a lot to think about so I thank both of you

[Dacidbro]

@Rei I wouldn't say infinitely, but it is very good. PS, something to laugh about; Bang's 5A is 5 frames. And 5B is only -1 on block.