[CS1] Haku-men Video Thread

[Sophisticat]

I've been doing 5c ender in corners lately for the oki, and I'd encourage everyone to do so too. It gives plenty of time to set up corner stuff.

The 6a seems like it would only work on non-DP/reversal characters, but otherwise seems solid in catching rolls and, as Tachyon says, get advantage on block. If they try to mash out, it's a frame trap, so you get free CH stagger into either damage or free mixup once they tech out. There might be more uses, I'll let Spark elaborate.

Zantetsu does work if you set it up properly. In this case, I thought it was pretty clever. He did Zan as the other guy was landing, so he was likely blocking low out of habit and that didn't leave him much time to react. I'll definitely check out the uses of that.

That Haku was really good, though. Stealing that stuff.

[Warhound]

I tried a landing Zantetsu last night, it worked out pretty well.

[Kaigu]

For all you Hakumens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3eakAZPBqM

[Sophisticat]

^ Siiiiiiick corner blocking from Spark. Good shit overall.

A Q, though: why not reaction j.D her 4D? I've managed to be somewhat consistent in j.D'ing 4D now, and it puts a huge crimp in Litchi's close mixup. Or is that too risky?

Also got some Sendatu, courtesy of Blade of Justice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNftdRbUy8Q

[Nakkiel]

I imagine there are two reasons. One being that Spark and I don't play very often.

Second being, is that every normal that can go into 4D can also go into 5D or 2D and both those moves create the same insignia on the screen. The sign kind of masks 4Ds animation (the flash happens just before the actual kick), so it'd be tough to j.D on reaction just because it's so easy to fake it.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I imagine there are two reasons. One being that Spark and I don't play very often.

Second being, is that every normal that can go into 4D can also go into 5D or 2D and both those moves create the same insignia on the screen. The sign kind of masks 4Ds animation (the flash happens just before the actual kick), so it'd be tough to j.D on reaction just because it's so easy to fake it.

Explains the lack of ib'ing from him so far in the vid, nigga has wicked ib skills but I'm not seeing much of that. Nice litchi btw, awesome, there's more vids of spark playing. IT'S. ABOUT. TIME

EDIT: Nvm, it's ct vids not cs =\

Question for spark, what's with you and tenchi and you random low to the ground j2c's? What exactly is the mind set of that and your random guren's?

Edited November 11, 2010 by BladeOfJustice7

[Spark]

j.2C has really slow start up, so if you use it jumping in a lot of the time they can anti-air you with something quick like 5A. But if you do it on the way up they have less time to react to it and if they block it you can always do j.214B on the way down. I think most of the gurens in the video are from me doing 5A after going from crouching to stand blocking so I got 214A instead of 5A.

Edit: Also I think those were the only matches I played that day.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Ok thanks, I'll probably watch your videos again, but is there anything you can combo the j2c jump cancel with and without CH?

[STRIDER I]

This is a video of me vs Lord Noitora. I know my play isn't great but i would really appreciate any feedback you guys could offer. Thanks in advance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL9tZv9mgw0

[Sophisticat]

Okay, I see some good stuff in there like voiding his nails and knowing your combos. No comment there, keep it up (though you might want to learn [stuff] -> gurren -> hop 5a/b -> staircase stuff if you haven't already).

Your biggest weakness here is over-reliance on counters. Bang is not a character I'd say is easy to use counters on, so you might as well forget them except to j.D his overheads, which can be done on reaction. In fact, I didn't see a single counter catch him. Bad habit.

Second, you might want to improve your ground game. This is hard to tell though, since Haku is in the air more often vs. Bang due to the way the match-up goes. However, having a solid ground game nets you better pressure and a more focused gameplan. And speaking of the latter, I'm not quite sure what you were attempting to do most of the time. Do you have other vids to offer?

Now, ground pressure is about want to make Bang block. His offense is very strong, but he's a bit lacking in the defense department. His only "reversals" are his drives, which can be beat just by blocking or low pokes (2a/b or 3c) depending on where he decides to appear. In general, try to get him into the corner, then work that TK Tsubaki or other mixup for massive damage.

I'll stop there because I don't know how to fight CS Bang all that well, he's not one of my best matchups, so I leave the stage to someone who knows the matchup more than I do. But to recap: 1) less counters, more poking. 2) Work that ground pressure. 3) Crank dat TK Tsubaki in the corner.

[STRIDER I]

Thanks for the feedback!

After i went back and watched the video i knew i went for way to many counters. I have a bad habit of not being patient.

My ground game probably isn't very solid. I tend to IAD all over the place and stay in the air the majority of most of my matches. Mainly because Hakumen is slow on the ground and i have only been playing him for a couple of weeks now. Could you recommend anything for improving my ground game?

As for a general strategy i guess thats what mine is- to IAD all over the place, poke and fish for counter hits. I really need to develop a true gameplan going into my matches. I get frustrated with myself all of the time for making stupid mistakes and that is probably one of the biggest reasons why. Unfortunately i don't have any other vids to offer i just got lucky that i ran into Lord Noitora online and asked him to upload one, maybe i"ll be able to record more matches against him in the future.

I didn't think to j.D his overheads. I kept trying to IB his block strings (Which i have improved at alot since this match) and counter but i would mistime the counters.

Thank you very much for your input! it has helped alot!

[Sophisticat]

Ground game is about maximizing the uses of Haku's tools to promote pressure and mixup. He sucks in those categories, but he's not a lost cause.

For example, one thing I really like is the stagger off 4c and 6a CH. In stagger, you can't tech like on the ground, so it's the closest you'll get to GG oki. You see where I'm going with this. It's up to you to choose what you want to go for.

J.C is also great for different reasons. It pushes into the corner and creates space around you. You can also do a low j.C for safe poking. On CH, you can gurren -> enma for free. It's not just j.C, though; all of Haku's normals serve a purpose (except 6b, that god-awful move), they're just situational. With j.2a you can stuff air entries, and 5a is actually a decent anti-air if used smartly. Know your normals!

For counters, learn to j.D overheads and you take a huge load off your back. Since overheads are strong in this game, countering them makes it harder for others to find solid, damaging options against you and makes them scared to try to pressure. Don't try to counter everything, just what's guaranteed. That alone is sufficient for counters to serve you without actually using them.

Last, but not least, throw setups. You have tick throw, kishuu -> grab, hop/poke/grab guessing game (unsafe! But can be effective), and I forget what else. The "gaps" in Haku's pressure should be filled with uncertainty (he can special cancel hops, for ex.). It's one of Haku's most under-appreciated aspects, as I have discovered.

Of course, these tips are kind of general. How you pressure each character will differ. With Ragna for ex., you have to watch out for ID. But it's also something you can bait. Experiment and find out what works best. The only thing you have to keep in mind is that pressure with Haku should be constant as much as possible. It's what makes others fear him.

And with this I have made it look like I know way more about Haku than I actually do.

[Sophisticat]

Pardon the double post, but I finally got around to recording some of my matches after who knows how long since my last.

1) v. GuardianSTL (VK)

2) v. Vice-Taicho (JI, LI)

Critiques are welcome! I think my only really glaring flaw is that I overuse 3c instead of going for a safer poke or better mixup. Anyway, tell me what you think.

[ryokoalways]

I only watched Jin match.

How bad was the lag? Jin had 2 block strings, should have killed him with IB.

Make better use of your knockdowns to get correct spacing. Get better at multi-hop.

Corner combo use 5B for launch. 2C is techable at second j2A.

Know your pokes better. It seemed like you were just throwing out random pokes. Get better spacing so you have control over which pokes you have available.

Block first hit of Jin's d dp, then barrier jump. Should never get hit by full charge. If you are unsure, then kishuu, which is not as good combo starter, but there won't be bad luck shenanigans.

Don't push yourself out of range quickly when applying pressure. Figure out how to frame trap correctly.

[Sophisticat]

Hey Ryoko, nice to have you back.

Okay, lag wasn't bad, but might have been there because we were 4 in the room. The guy lives in my city though, so it shouldn't really apply here. His Jin is his sub, and it's the first time I went against him, so I wasn't sure what to expect. His Litchi is otherwise fearsome. IB point noted, though.

Yes, correct spacing on knockdown needs improving. I've been focusing more on mixup options, but that should be fine now. I'll get to working on spacing.

Didn't know that. I thought 5b was just for better corner positioning. Good to know.

I do mash jabs too much these days. What do you suggest I use instead?

You can kishuu under D DP? Awesome, I'll be using. I usually always jump out or barrier, but I wasn't sure if he'd do full charge or not. Got hit anyway. :\

I'm not sure what you mean about your last point, though. I do use 3c (or random pokes as you say) too much, which pushes out. Am I about right?

I have been working on getting better, more focused pressure with Haku recently, so it's a work in progress. Your advice is just what I needed.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I watched the valk fight. Ryoko and nolan started making me feel bad for not helping others lol.

Ok nolan, work on your hit confirm, there was like one or two CH 5c's you landed that could've linked to kishuu>enma.

I'm under the assumption against that valk you were especially nervous, but even the few minutes I watched you play vice taicho you were jd'in and 5d'in every 15-20 seconds. Word of advice, if you don't even know where your opponent attack is coming from, why would you try to counter it? You need to lay off counters, and block more, if your opponent block strings are stressing you out (online ofcourse) barrier block to push them back and give you space, and watch out for grabs.

Your spacing for 4c wasn't good and it led to a lot of CH's from what I saw, check sparks input on valk v.s haku. You'll see he mentions to avoid 4c especially if it's not at max range which, when you did it, it wasn't. 4c is not to your advantage against very mobile characters like valk/tao/(imo)hazama. The first two can easily get into your face and make you eat a CH combo, which, is the worst thing against valk (7k+). On wake up instead of going for counters, learn to use tk hotaru, much safer, much more reward, and still threatening even on block.

I also noticed you're trying to use spark/tenchi's j2c very low to the ground, it's only useful (especially on characters with solid AA's) when you jump cancel it. Thus making it very close to the ground, you're doing it too high, giving valk enough time to either AA you or trade, either or leads to you eating another CH combo.

Finally try to be more observant. In the last round of the first fight against valk, he burst TWICE in one round, punish him for that. Make him respect haku's guard breaking abilities, there were about two points where you could have gone for a 6c or maybe frame trap him into a 6b. Don't get it twisted, make sure to not go out of your way to guard break, I've seen a lot of people get hasty to do so and lose the round/match instead. Another thing you need to work on even when we have played, improve on your close range pressure and punish mashing when they try to get out of haku's frame traps. Be sure to use jc low to the ground like I showed you, contrary to popular belief jc close to the ground is THE most effective zoning tool, does more damage that 4c, has almost as much range as 4c, 5 frames or so faster than 4c, and much more difficult to close in on haku (either by air or ground) than 4c.

[ryokoalways]

Using poke is fine, but you need to use them correctly. If someone asks you why you did 2A somewhere, you should be able to answer the question.

Last point means just because you did 1 2A, does not mean you need to do more 2As. You end up pushing yourself out of a range where you can scare your opponent too quickly.

Another thing I forgot to mention, you can't go into your mix-up game until you condition your opponent correctly. Against regular players that play all offense and no defense, the first order of business is to prevent jump outs/mash with

5C (Knockdown at end of combo)>6A (force neutral tech)>2B (Meaty to prevent jump) or one of the 4-5 other variations of this wake-up.

If your opponent doesn't learn, then just do 3-4 3.5k combos and win the round. If he learns, then you start throwing out your mix-ups. Empty tsubaki isn't going to do anything. Work it into other parts of your game.

[mAc Chaos]

Oh Ryoko, those are pretty helpful. Do you have any good frame traps to use too? Like, there are some standard ones but people adjust to those after a while. Sometimes I have more trouble with people who just go balls to the wall no respect than anyone else, because you can pretty much mash out of his "blockstrings."

Do you mean to do 5C after you knocked them down, so if they roll tech, they roll into the 5C? Or to just end a combo with 5C? Because you could probably add 3C after it.

[BladeOfJustice7]

snip

Yes, glad you mentionned the empty tsubaki, it a) shouldn't be used that high in the air and so often 2) you need to learn to hit/block confirm to keep them from moving before you go for it. Just firing it away and wasting 3 stars is nowhere to go to win a match, I use one or two 2a's before I think of going for a tk tsubaki.

Oh Ryoko, those are pretty helpful. Do you have any good frame traps to use too? Like, there are some standard ones but people adjust to those after a while. Sometimes I have more trouble with people who just go balls to the wall no respect than anyone else, because you can pretty much mash out of his "blockstrings."

Do you mean to do 5C after you knocked them down, so if they roll tech, they roll into the 5C? Or to just end a combo with 5C? Because you could probably add 3C after it.

Here is the post I was talking about with spark's block strings: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?8957-CS-Hakumen-Guide&p=638536&viewfull=1#post638536

Ryoko said 5c as an ender because it allows for greater mix up in the corner. If you even check tenchi's latest matches on gameacho's youtube account you'll see he always ends corner combos with 5c for those reasons mentionned above. 3c as ender does minimal damage and leaves you in a recovery state allowing you opponent to jump out of the corner (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Sophisticat]

Suddenly, walls of text!

I watched the valk fight. Ryoko and nolan started making me feel bad for not helping others lol.

Ok nolan, work on your hit confirm, there was like one or two CH 5c's you landed that could've linked to kishuu>enma.

I'm under the assumption against that valk you were especially nervous, but even the few minutes I watched you play vice taicho you were jd'in and 5d'in every 15-20 seconds. Word of advice, if you don't even know where your opponent attack is coming from, why would you try to counter it? You need to lay off counters, and block more, if your opponent block strings are stressing you out (online ofcourse) barrier block to push them back and give you space, and watch out for grabs.

[snip]

I also noticed you're trying to use spark/tenchi's j2c very low to the ground, [...]

[snip]

No, I wasn't nervous. It's actually my first match(es) against a Valk who really knows his stuff, so I was trying stuff out. Random 5c and 4c was to see if it would hit his wolf dash, for ex. But yeah, I do need to work on hit confirms, especially non-CH stuff that gets a hit in.

Counters against Vice were more bad habit than anything. Playing online, you get a feel for tendencies people go for. I got too used to that. Going to have to rectify it. ._.

I think I might ditch wakeup TK Hotaru for the remainder of CS, though. If you saw a random renka in there, I was going for it. You'll also notice no TK Hotaru I did get out actually hit. I think I'll stick to stuffing people with hop Hotaru until they fix renka's input.

Point noted for the low j.(2)c's, I'll work on those too.

[snip]

5C (Knockdown at end of combo)>6A (force neutral tech)>2B (Meaty to prevent jump) or one of the 4-5 other variations of this wake-up.

If your opponent doesn't learn, then just do 3-4 3.5k combos and win the round. If he learns, then you start throwing out your mix-ups. Empty tsubaki isn't going to do anything. Work it into other parts of your game.

Ryoko said 5c as an ender because it allows for greater mix up in the corner. If you even check tenchi's latest matches on gameacho's youtube account you'll see he always ends corner combos with 5c for those reasons mentionned above. 3c as ender does minimal damage and leaves you in a recovery state allowing you opponent to jump out of the corner (correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes! I've started using 5c ender in the corner for a while now, and it's awesome. You get plenty of time to set stuff up, but as Ryoko says, it has to be done right with the right spacing.

As for pokes, now that you mention it, I might be guilty of mashing 2a for no reason. I'll have to work on that too. I think I recall Spark saying that he uses 2a mash to think about what he wants to do next, and that's kind of what I do, but I don't think I actually do much with it other than try to stuff moves or set up tick throw.

Yes, glad you mentionned the empty tsubaki, it a) shouldn't be used that high in the air and so often 2) you need to learn to hit/block confirm to keep them from moving before you go for it. Just firing it away and wasting 3 stars is nowhere to go to win a match, I use one or two 2a's before I think of going for a tk tsubaki.

Lol, I don't do empty Tsubaki. If I did, I did it on reaction without thinking or it was mis-inputed, I wouldn't do it that high unless they block low after a j.2c or something. I usually only use Tsubaki if they're blocking low in front of me or in the corner.

Thanks for all the responses, lots of good info in here. Hopefully Haku's pressure will be a bit more intuitive in CS2 so it's not something patchwork like it is currently.

[ryokoalways]

Oh Ryoko, those are pretty helpful. Do you have any good frame traps to use too? Like, there are some standard ones but people adjust to those after a while. Sometimes I have more trouble with people who just go balls to the wall no respect than anyone else, because you can pretty much mash out of his "blockstrings."

Do you mean to do 5C after you knocked them down, so if they roll tech, they roll into the 5C? Or to just end a combo with 5C? Because you could probably add 3C after it.

First, 5C to knockdown. Any variation of combo into jC>5C wake-up game.

Condition your opponent into blocking with meaty 5B, 2B to prevent jump out. Make them unable to spam/reversal with hotaru and backdash (6A>backdash from above set-up will beat almost every type of reversal, by plain miss, hotaru, or yukikaze cancels). Also add walk>2B>hop variations to change timing so your opponent doesn't get comfortable dealing with one timing only.

Then go into your mix-ups/traps

5B>high/low

Meaty throw

Feint throw

hopXn>high/low/hotaru/reset

Frame traps is basically various delays with renka, 6A, 3C. 2C, etc. I personally like to do 6A at half character range. Trades with most pokes (always a win with 6A), beats jump outs (screen carry combos are always good), and out of throw range.

Once you master basic wake-up game, then you can add tech traps, but those are more gimmicky than the basics. Good to use once in awhile, since forcing your opponent to guess between air throw and hotaru is very good trade-off.

Edited November 21, 2010 by ryokoalways

[Sophisticat]

A-cho updated earlier with some new vids. What's interesting is that the Haku play in there is directly relevant to our discussion! Some samples:

Red Haku: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UarKDBuw_hg

White Haku: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqsTewan1V8

If that's the kind of pressure you're talking about Ryoko, I think CS Haku is finally clicking with me. Might have some new vids up in just 2-3 weeks with the new stuff.

One more thing, would you have anything to add about combo selection? I see these JP Hakus use some interesting variants I've never seen before. Is there anything in particular that would be good to know? Also, I see that they sj. in corner combos right after a 5b. I thought an sj. would carry you too high to keep comboing?

[ryokoalways]

It's a good illustration of the idea, although their variations are still fairly basic (but that's expected, since they are playing random people). The only suggestion I have is to not use 2C as jump-bait that much, since that always leads into kishuu on block (too obvious, and waste of meter).

As for combos, the rules haven't changed

1. Middle of screen: Always do carry combo or set-up combo, never damage combo (unless going for kill). Combo variation dependent on distance to corner.

2. Corner: Always knockdown combos or tech trap combos. Never go below 1 magatama (you can get magatama back during combo) unless you are going for the kill.

Another thing to get good at is calculating exact damage needed to kill. I mention this because it's a good idea to hold your magatama till the end for shippu. You get a few hundred less in damage for each equivalent combo (in reality the magatama efficiency is terrible, but you are going for the kill so who cares), but since you are holding onto your magatama, you won't get bursted when you unload your magatama, and you are completely safe from burst when you do. So at the very worst, you read a burst wrong, get hit, but still retain at least 4 more magatamas.

[Leonil_Requiem]

Walls of text are scary, what are we talking about?

[BladeOfJustice7]

snip

Good shit ryoko. If we ever need a co-mod it would be you. Also, you try to get vids of yourself like you did in ct.