[CS1] Haku-men Video Thread

[ryokoalways]

I've recorded some matches between me and a friend (same one as before, now he plays Hazama). But it's more just for him to study. Not to mention he hasn't beaten my Hakumen in 3 months, so it's not really going to be educational to non-players by any means.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I might find it useful personally, the second best player in my city is a hazama player, I just can't seem to get past him honestly. Mainly since he simply out plays me, but I also need to work on the match up and against him. Because we have another hazama player which I beat at least 3 out of 5 matches. If you could upload one of your matches and if I really don't think it will be beneficial to me I won't ask you again.

Thanks.

[ryokoalways]

I'll see if I can get my hands on it.

[Sophisticat]

Walls of text are scary, what are we talking about?

How to pressure with Haku, for the most part.

[ryokoalways]

Mix-up/trap examples

Make sure you ask questions if you don't understand why something happened. I still don't think this is very educational though.

Edit: Forgot to mention, ignore the sound (or better yet, mute it). Apparently I forgot to change the input on the audio record and it got our voice through the laptop mic rather than output from ps3.

Edited November 25, 2010 by ryokoalways

[Sophisticat]

Dude, I learned a ton right there. I can see why you think it's not educational, though, kind of have to know what you're looking for. I'll be studying it later. For now, I'll wait and see if Spark wants to add anything.

I say, your Hazama friend must be pretty frustrated with your Haku if you can beat him that handily.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Mix-up/trap examples

Make sure you ask questions if you don't understand why something happened. I still don't think this is very educational though.

Edit: Forgot to mention, ignore the sound (or better yet, mute it). Apparently I forgot to change the input on the audio record and it got our voice through the laptop mic rather than output from ps3.

Thanks for the vid. is your 6a after the 5c knock down delayed to get the tech grab? And why hope specials, I didn't see you use tk at all. Very nice haku btw, learned a few things you did with regards to the hazama match up, I'll try to implement them.

[ryokoalways]

6A delay is dependent on how high 5C hits to get the knockdown.

Hop hotaru is better offensively. TK is better defensively.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Hop hotaru is better offensively.

Because it pushes you closer to the opponent?

[Ronin Jinobi]

Mix-up/trap examples

Make sure you ask questions if you don't understand why something happened. I still don't think this is very educational though.

Edit: Forgot to mention, ignore the sound (or better yet, mute it). Apparently I forgot to change the input on the audio record and it got our voice through the laptop mic rather than output from ps3.

I noticed some pretty cool stuff in there. I'm gonna test out that 6A delay Throw later on. but yeah i can see how you wouldn't think it was educational.

[Spark]

Because it pushes you closer to the opponent?

TKing is better defensively because it's faster, you only after to go through jump start up which is 4 frames. While dashing is frame 6 at earliest.

Dashing Hotaru is better offensively because not only do you move closer if you do it as fast as possible or as late as possible it's +7, where as if you TK it it's -3. This is because when you dash you are closer to the ground than when you TK.

[ryokoalways]

Hop hotaru closes the distance, but more importantly, you need to hop to be ambiguous enough to be able to use the other components of the mix-up. With tk, all you have available is hotaru or tsubaki. With hop, the initiator is ambiguous, carry-through looks exactly the same for all mix-up components (because you don't add anything to the initiator for all cases), and have the exact same timing (cannot be option selected). you can (in order)

hotaru

tsubaki

renka cancel

throw

more complicated bait components (don't bother with this unless you are playing against someone that is really good. You will just end up out-thinking yourself instead)

hop again

For 6A>throw (or any kind of mix-up for that matter), you have to condition your opponent into not jumping first with 6A>2B/5A/5B. Do that first to prevent jump-outs and poke-outs. Next, work in reversal baits (5C knockdown>walk 2B, backdash, etc). After those, you will have access to all your mix-ups because you can force your opponent into actually blocking on wake-up reliably.

Edited November 25, 2010 by ryokoalways

[BladeOfJustice7]

Dashing Hotaru is better offensively because not only do you move closer if you do it as fast as possible or as late as possible it's +7, where as if you TK it it's -3. This is because when you dash you are closer to the ground than when you TK.

Good info, I thought hotaru was always plus on block, I guess because it cancels into jd on block. Which is why I thought that. Any gimmicks/shenanigans that can be used with so much frame advantage, or simply go into mix up again?

snip

Yea, this is one the things I'll need to work on during the break. I have a problem utilizing hop to its max. But, that is because I keep getting knocked out of it, the renka cancel I'll have to look into because it may solve my problems. Every time I would go for a hop hotaru/tsubaki in my ct days, I would get knocked out of it by 2a or something that's quick and low. So I stopped using it, at minimum range can hop hotaru whiff on any 2/low attacks from the rest of the cast from what you know?

Nevertheless the hop renka cancel should keep them honest to my hop game, that and better hit confirm/combo pick up.

Thanks.

[ryokoalways]

hop hotaru is designed to beat pokes everything, and will if you time it correctly to each situation.

Only time hotaru will whiff is if against something really low like Noel's 3C. I don't think even Taokaka's crawl will go under it, but I'm not sure about that one.

[Leonil_Requiem]

alot of stuff could go under hop hotaru's hit box, such as ragna's 3C.

[ryokoalways]

Ragna's 3c is a special case where a good hitbox makes hotaru whiff instead of going under it (Ragna's body draws back enough for hotaru to miss, for a period of time). If you are not over half way into your hop when ragna starts the 3C, you can hit him out of 3c if you delay hotaru as long as possible as his hitbox will come back forward at that point.

[Sophisticat]

Posting just to say that the above pressure stuff that was talked about is, indeed, effective. My win rate went up a bit, I pressured more effectively, and I even got hit less. Sounds like a bad ad, but it worked! :D

That said, I did still have a bit of trouble pressuring mid-screen after a down because of backward rolls. Is there anything that can help prevent that?

[psycofang2]

if you are right on top of them. 2A/B spam. 3C if you know when they will roll.

[sol_bad_guy]

Wow that j2A and letting go to air dash j2C whiffing on recovery into TK Hotaru was mad pro o.o

[qwerty]

maybe i'm just getting old, but i'm not really a fan of dash cancel hotaru anymore.

it's not like it's bad (far from it, lol), it's just that you're not going to learn how to play footsies if your answer to mid range pokes is always hotaru. i'm much more impressed by a hakumen that actually knows how to use 5B and 5C than one that just mashes hotaru all the time.

[ryokoalways]

Then it's not really a case of "not a fan of hotaru", but more of "against not learning how to space correct". Again, all of hakumen's pokes have situational uses. You need to learn how to use all of them.

[qwerty]

you're right, i should've been a bit more clear.

if you ask me, using hotaru as your answer to everything is shortsighted and overall detrimental to your growth as a player. the fact of the matter is, you're not learning to poke, you're just mashing dp. in any other game (or even as any other character in bb) this will get you KILLED. that, and actually good players respect hotaru, so you're just blowing meter against them.

i especially love when people get all excited that they landed an fc hotaru; it's like, you're not the first person to dp a poke on reaction, and you won't be the last. did you think you invented masturbation when you were twelve, too?

anyways, irresponsible use of hotaru is one of the two major problems facing most hakumen players, i think. the other being irresponsible use of the d button. i'll elaborate a bit more on it once i finally finish that godforsaken guide (i wanted to finish it last month, but since finals are next week i can probably finish it ONCE AND FOR ALL soon) but for now i'll leave it at this; learn to ib, and whenever you want to counter, ib instead. this is the first step to becoming a respectful hakumen player.

Edited December 2, 2010 by qwerty

[itsme]

I'm actually pretty annoyed when I GO for the punish and it magically whiffs or it misses. Other then that I was assuming all the top level Hakumens were whiffing their 6D on those overheads because I really noticed a lot of them are prone to overheads. Also, this discussion just reminded me of years ago in CT when I thought hop hotaru/tsubaki was insane and bad ass everytime 0 or other Hakus got the opponent.

[mAc Chaos]

I've never used it to randomly hit people out of pokes. I don't trust my execution enough for it; I'd get hit out of my hop instead. I just use it for frame traps and punishing baited anti airs.

What are the situational uses for 5B and 5C?

Edited December 3, 2010 by mAc Chaos

[Warhound]

I tend to use 5B for pressure. Like 2A > 2A > 6A > 2A >5B

It's also good for close-mid range. As for 5C, I used that as an impromptu form of AA in CT. Don't use it that much in CS though.