GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[Mechanica]

If he's in C tier I'd put him pretty high up in it, though. He is better than Sol, but I wouldn't say he's better than Zappa. Then again Zappa's random.

[Digital Watches]

He is better than Sol, but I wouldn't say he's better than Zappa. Then again Zappa's random.

Maybe a BIT random, but I'd say pretty strong if the player can turtle right.

[CrimsonDisaster]

im sorry but ky is not B tier

He is average, he has nothing overwhelming...just average at everything

and YES his damage output sucks, how does it not? have you seen everyone elses?

You're welcome to keep living in the fantasy-land from like #R where Ky is only "average at everything" when he is quite clearly better than a good chunk of the cast at some things.

How convenient to forget the likes of Millia, Dizzy, ghosts-Zappa, Anji, Bridget, Venom, and Baiken when talking about "everyone else." Ky does plenty of damage with the same kind of opportunities as other characters; he can kill in 4-5 combos and can get a mixup off pretty much whatever combo... obviously it takes a few more most of the time since you'll hit some crappy low damage knockdowns for meter/positioning rather than always getting a VT loop or whatever, but it's generally in that ball park... and everybody else in the cast has to take crappy knockdown combos at some point and nobody holds it against them.

Even the really high damage characters (Slayer, May, Jam, Potemkin, A.B.A., Eddie) typically need 3-4 combos to kill, barring major counter-hits or big guardbar crank into unprorated hit. Typically more since, again, they won't always have tension or screen position or an instant-win counter-hit, or they get a few low damage throw combos in there or something.

Everybody loves seeing huge chunks of life disappear, but 3 33-35% damage combos kill just as well as 3 45-49% damage combos. 4 25% damage combos kill just as well as 4 30-40% combos.

With ideal but not stupid CV-only situations, only a few characters have 1-2 combo kill potential that might come up often (mostly Slayer, Jam, Eddie, maybe Raou-Zappa), the 2-3 combo kill range is a bit bigger (previously mentioned, + Potemkin, May, ABA). A pretty good chunk of the cast is sitting somewhere around 3-5 combos to kill. Add +1-2 combos in each category to account for setup combos for a more realistic appraisal, I guess.

Ky happens to be sitting right around the same place as most of the cast, in any case- 3-5 (+1-2 setup) combos to kill, and most of his combos give him an opportunity to go straight into a mixup and potentially another combo.

Then again this is the same internet where Sol's 50% combos do more damage than Johnny's 50% combos so whatever.

[Vicioso]

so...because you say ky can kill someone in 4-5 combos he is B tier? um...yea alright...then pretty much everyone is B tier...lol

[rtl42]

in the above post, he focused on comparing Ky's damage output with everyone else's, because you keep bringing up. edit: damn, and CD posted right after me, but i wanted to say that why are you surprised that "Everyone is B tier", this isn't #R or even Slash!

[CrimsonDisaster]

then pretty much everyone is B tier

pretty much

[Silmerion]

I like to think that damage output is less important than a character's ability to force opponents to take it, and Ky seems to have that in spades. Oki, pressure, mix-ups...Ky can be a dangerous son-of-a-gun in the right hands.

[Senkei]

If you seriously think VV destroys Slayer's options against Sol then you need to wake up. Do you realize how ignorant that is? VV beats practically any option against any character at the right distance. That's a completely ignorant thing to say since you know how risky a random VV is. Random VV = very high risk/low reward ratio unless you have 50% meter.

It's really easy to get caught up in the "but VV beats xxx option" hype, but really... think about the risk and reward before saying something like that... ESPECIALLY in AC, and ESPECIALLY against characters that do huge amounts of damage on punish.

i was saying it in regards slayer attacking and placing them well...not all vipers have to be random

but some of the stuff mac said seems to make some difference i'd just like to see this shit put into action cause from what i've seen it looks even

[JackG]

Why Slayer is a bad match-up for Sol:

5K - Sol can't get inside without special move - 2D will beat it if timed right

2S - Sol can't jump in - well damn near nobody can jump in against 2s

5P - See above, but safer - same pretty much

j.P - See above, but safer - ditto

j.K - Starts unprorated aircombo - it does on everyone

6P - trades with GV for a combo, clashes with VV, beats riot stomp. - who uses Riot Stomp/GV randomly?

Riot stomp always loses - Riot Stomp loses to everyone, everywhere

VV = death b/c too many ways to safely bait. - anyone can bait VV

It really seems like all of the "Sol isn't top tier because..." arguments are all pretty silly, along the lines of:

- VV can be baited, and GV and Riot Stomp lose to moves.

Now sure, if you're playing an opponent who trys to VV all the time and spams Riot Stomp of course he's going to look like a shit character. Sure VV is an amazing move, but you won't see good japanese players throwing it randomly out there all the time (ignore Daigo). Sols that actually use good spacing techniques (5h, jump+fd, jumpin j.H (one of the better jump ins in the game) Not to mention his run speen is one of the fastest in the game.

And don't even get me started on his abare. Basically anything can be easily hitconfirmed into ground gatling X > 2H > Grandviper Clean for pretty much lots of tensionless knockdown damage. Plus it work really far away (crouching or non). If you have an excellent knowledge of how his Clean hits work, you can go into tensionless knockdown Sidewinder loops off damn near anything (permitted you actually know what you're doing).

I'm not tryin to claim Sol has what it takes to be top tier, but I can see him in middle B-tier.

[AtTheGates]

It really seems like all of the "Sol isn't top tier because..." arguments are all pretty silly, along the lines of:

- VV can be baited, and GV and Riot Stomp lose to moves.

you don't seem to understand. 6p clashes with VV, thus it is not a bait, but an option select. either way, sol is fucked.

[Tsak]

i don't see how slayers do all this perfect action/reacting to everything sol does because all of this hypothetical stuff you guys are talking about that should work ive have yet to see on a consistent basis where sol just has no options

[Rome]

While I agree Sol is C tier (gettin in is extremely hard with certain characters,no good overheads,easily escapable pressure,and if he does get in his mix-ups aren't to tricky,alot of his options are unsafe most of the time), I don't think Slayer is a bad of a match-up for him. As long as Sol takes the reigns of the match like in the video by taking advantage of what he has over Slayer, he should be fine. I agree with CD about Ky though. He belongs in B tier.

[bucklemyshoe]

I-No is D tier.

D stands for Don't play this charachter.

my 2 cents

[Vicioso]

im not saying ky is useless hes good enough to still win, but he doesnt have as many good options as the characters i listed ahead of him imo....obviously =/

[Hideki]

There's no way Ky's B. He just get owned by too many characters, his acces to beefy damage is limited, and while his okis, pressures and mixups are pretty good, he depends a lot on his tension for pretty much anything.

[JackG]

you don't seem to understand. 6p clashes with VV, thus it is not a bait, but an option select. either way, sol is fucked.

Yeah I'm well aware of this fact. What I don't understand is why you would think it's an awful matchup for Sol because of it. For one thing, Slayer's 6p is good (and most people know that by now) However, how many Slayers are you gonna see using it as Okizeme? Certainly none I've seen, because it's defiantely not mixup and certainly doesn't really lead into any type of blockstring or mixup. If Robo does 5p on Sols getup, then Robo can hold back and option select meaty 5p that will still recover in 4 frames and block a reversal S-VV (5 frames). Does this make it a bad matchup for Sol? I don't hardly think so, all it requires is Sol actually learns to block.

[axel]

Potemkin is S tier because FAB got 70 wins without a loss in a recent kumite, unlike Millia and I-no, which Koichi only managed to rack up 30-win streaks.

[CrimsonDisaster]

There's no way Ky's B.

He just get owned by too many characters, his acces to beefy damage is limited, and while his okis, pressures and mixups are pretty good, he depends a lot on his tension for pretty much anything.

Show me a matchup chart where Ky "gets owned up by too many characters."

[AtTheGates]

However, how many Slayers are you gonna see using it as Okizeme? Certainly none I've seen, because it's defiantely not mixup and certainly doesn't really lead into any type of blockstring or mixup. If Robo does 5p on Sols getup, then Robo can hold back and option select meaty 5p that will still recover in 4 frames and block a reversal S-VV (5 frames). Does this make it a bad matchup for Sol? I don't hardly think so, all it requires is Sol actually learns to block.

are you serious? they do it all the time. short pause, 6p snuffs any attempts at escape the enemy might have, be it a quick 2p or jump away. they often use it with frc.

[Jais]

Yeah I'm well aware of this fact. What I don't understand is why you would think it's an awful matchup for Sol because of it. For one thing, Slayer's 6p is good (and most people know that by now) However, how many Slayers are you gonna see using it as Okizeme? Certainly none I've seen, because it's defiantely not mixup and certainly doesn't really lead into any type of blockstring or mixup. If Robo does 5p on Sols getup, then Robo can hold back and option select meaty 5p that will still recover in 4 frames and block a reversal S-VV (5 frames). Does this make it a bad matchup for Sol? I don't hardly think so, all it requires is Sol actually learns to block.

6P FRC. Leads to like, any mixup you want...

I'm not saying it's a HORRIBLE UN-WINNABLE matchup, I'm saying it's in Slayer's favor. I'm sure Brent would agree seeing how he's played me billions and billions of times. He has to throw out risky things.

BOTTOM LINE = Sol throws out risky specials to beat my normals while I throw out safe normals to beat his specials. Slayer has infinitely better normals than Sol, too.

(Mac)

[shinquickman]

You're welcome to keep living in the fantasy-land from like #R where Ky is only "average at everything" when he is quite clearly better than a good chunk of the cast at some things.

How convenient to forget the likes of Millia, Dizzy, ghosts-Zappa, Anji, Bridget, Venom, and Baiken when talking about "everyone else." Ky does plenty of damage with the same kind of opportunities as other characters; he can kill in 4-5 combos and can get a mixup off pretty much whatever combo... obviously it takes a few more most of the time since you'll hit some crappy low damage knockdowns for meter/positioning rather than always getting a VT loop or whatever, but it's generally in that ball park... and everybody else in the cast has to take crappy knockdown combos at some point and nobody holds it against them.

You do not want to compare Ky's damage output to the likes of any of those chars... ever. Anji can touch you w/ most ANY moves on the ground and it will lead to a 45% combo into a reset w/ 25% tension. Off anti-air CH 5P (a hit you can land consistantly) he can deal 35% w/ no knockdown (SJI combo), or 15-35% w/ knockdown, depending if you use tension or not (On combo). Off of his oki setups, damage output can go as high as 65%, and he scores at least 35%. Potentially, Anji just needs 3-4 combos to kill someone, and this is w/o large stretches like max guard meter or random counter hits (1 combo into reset into another combo into reset into another combo).

Millia deals a TON of damage as well. A random j.P hit can be converted to a 35% combo (situational), and off her oki setups, 30-45% to a knockdown, depends what hit you started. Potentially, she can kill in 4-5 combos w/o stretches.

Now for Ky. Random j.K to a VT knockdown combo around 25%. Anti air 6P to VTL, around 30%. CH anti air 2H, about 45%. Off of grab, 20% w/ tension or FB trap out. Off of oki setups, he can go as high as 40% (averaged out w/ how much guard guage is built), deals at least 25%, but usually scores 35%(2D>FB orb>VTL) No stretches, Ky can kill in 5-7 combos.

There's no other way around it. Ky is a pixie compared to 3/4th of the cast. On average, Ky deals 10% less than most other chars . But that doesn't make him a bad char either. Personally, I think he's B tier myself. His spacing/zoning is definitely not what you'd call average, and yet unlike other zoners, he isn't completely helpless under pressure.

[Sytha]

Characters like? Zappa is bad. (His Worst easily. triplets vs. Ky is just flat retarded.) Baiken and Jam are bad. Venom is bad (Supposivly), A.B.A, Pot, Axl and Eddie are also kinda bad. Rest are 5-5 or better honestly. He's roughly 5-5 vs. Slayer and Testament who are both considered top. And Eddie and Potemkin match ups aren't that bad. For stuff he does well? He gets a lot of chances to do damage compared to most characters. His poke game is very strong combined with the fact that any random hit leads to a knockdown and his meter gaining is through the roof. (Honestly if done right his Throw FRC combos return all the meter he spent doing the FRC, maybe more...) His mix ups are also fairly good while not Millia level you'll get hit by something. His Space control is top 5-6 in the game easily. His Anti air game is easily among the best in the game. (Axl and Maybe Faust compare.) A lot of frame traps and good pressure. He Excels at a lot of stuff. Damage is most definitely not one of them tho. He's just Solid overall. Poor Damage sucks tho. Yea. But the right combos will still kill people in 3 combos pretty much or 2 and and a half or whatever. Pretty much just recapping what has already been said tho. He isn't low tier. B sounds about right.

[Rome]

His damage output is his only real weakness,and he excels is many other things (zoning,poking,hard to combo,nice okizeme,pressure is better than average,nice DP), and is basically average in others aspects. His matchups aren't bad at all either. He should definitely be B tier.

[purify]

If Ky's damage output really bothers you, learn the 2D > stun edge FRC combos and do 180-240 every time. Granted, they're hard, they're character specific and so on, but same goes for a lot of the other characters' big damage combos.

[JackG]

6P FRC. Leads to like, any mixup you want...

I'm not saying it's a HORRIBLE UN-WINNABLE matchup, I'm saying it's in Slayer's favor. I'm sure Brent would agree seeing how he's played me billions and billions of times. He has to throw out risky things.

BOTTOM LINE = Sol throws out risky specials to beat my normals while I throw out safe normals to beat his specials. Slayer has infinitely better normals than Sol, too.

(Mac)

Yeah you can FRC for mixup, but you generally don't do that (and I know this because I've played you a lot) because you have plenty of other mixup that already works insanely well on it's own. knockdown into Dandystep > anything is what I usually see because it's super ambiguous and tensionless, but feel free to let me know if that is drastically wrong.

It just seems like the argument is more or less stating that Slayer is good, versus Sol is bad. A lot of characters have to make bad risk/reward decisions against Slayer, but that is one of the reasons why Slayer is S tier and most characters are not. From a non-matchup oriented viewpoint, Sol has good damage, speed, average health, good abare, and just about always tensionless knockdown. Sure you can say his mixup sucks ( not that bad with a command throw as well as the fastest normal in the game ) but most people only say that because he has no ground overhead other than 5d (which sucks). It seems like Sol's true weakness is his weakness to getting zoned out. I just don't see why a comparison of Sol's moves to Slayer's 6p frc is an accurate representation of the character as a whole.