Jason D. Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 Frame traps? You could, but who's going to mash when they're cursed? And I haven't found winding away to be very useful when Rachel is cursed. For one, going straight up and off-screen can still get her hit by the... D bug, I think it is? Flying from side to side works a lot better, but it's also guaranteed to get her a negative penalty. At which point, if you fly into a stray bug, you are so boned. If she's jumping in the air to avoid bugs the wind can change her trajectory for a little "triple jump" action, but the wind isn't particularly abuseable considering the sheer amount of bugs around. And if she is hopping a lot, it's going to run out real fast anyway.
AdamNW Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 This probably should have been updated before Mu came around, imo. Unless we really want to wait until November to get a new tier list :V
Catastrophy Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 I'm very dissapointed to hear that Tager is essentially where he was in CT (Rachel is only below him because of one of the most unusually large nerf hammers in fighter history). I thought with added speed and gadget finger mixup they had him in A tier not long after it hit arcades...what did was broken off him to make him crap again?
Dacidbro Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Nothing was broken off of him except damage, and he isn't as bad as he was in CT. He has some tragic matchups and most of the cast has some significant edge over him, but it's not as bad as it was in CT.
Heavy_Mental Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 I'm very dissapointed to hear that Tager is essentially where he was in CT (Rachel is only below him because of one of the most unusually large nerf hammers in fighter history). I thought with added speed and gadget finger mixup they had him in A tier not long after it hit arcades...what did was broken off him to make him crap again? He has an arguably easier time getting in now with better oki (though if you ask me Gadget Finger is pretty shitty outside of getting the guy magnetized, and you still have 2D for that) and buffed 5D. His damage took a big hit and outside of 2C FC combos, resets, and certain setups like CH j.D, he hardly hits for more than 3.5K. He is able to get in and land combos more consistently now though, so it isn't all that bad. His AA is a little better with the buffs to 2C and Atomic Collider, though they are still rather situational. 2A is a decent AA if spaced correctly. I think the main things that prevent him from being higher tier are all the buffs to other charactes. He still has tough matchups against pretty much everyone and several of them got a lot tougher, namely his matchups with Ragna, Bang, Litchi, Hakumen, Tao. Each of them can output greater average damage than Tager and can safely pressure/zone him
Afrikaan Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 He has an arguably easier time getting in now with better oki (though if you ask me Gadget Finger is pretty shitty outside of getting the guy magnetized, and you still have 2D for that) and buffed 5D. His damage took a big hit and outside of 2C FC combos, resets, and certain setups like CH j.D, he hardly hits for more than 3.5K. He is able to get in and land combos more consistently now though, so it isn't all that bad. His AA is a little better with the buffs to 2C and Atomic Collider, though they are still rather situational. 2A is a decent AA if spaced correctly. I think the main things that prevent him from being higher tier are all the buffs to other charactes. He still has tough matchups against pretty much everyone and several of them got a lot tougher, namely his matchups with Ragna, Bang, Litchi, Hakumen, Tao. Each of them can output greater average damage than Tager and can safely pressure/zone him This really. It's kind of grating to see Tager manage about 3.5K and only breaking 4k BnBs barely if his opponent is magnetized beforehand, while Litchi has 5K combos into ridiculous corner oki and I'm sure we all know of Bang's 5A into 5K(EDIT: FINE DACID Apparently I can't have any fun, 5A to about 4K then ) shenanigans and Ragna's 4K double BE combos. It makes you wonder what the hell is the point of having the inherant disadvatages of being a grappler, yet again that's why they're top tier bullshit. Maybe they should have kept the the Tager from the initial loketest after all.
Dacidbro Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Bang's 5A doesn't lead to 5k. People need to stop exaggerating the power of 5A. With 100 meter, you can get his 5A to do 4.7k
A.X.I.S. Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 dacid 4.7k is close enough to 5k. no matter how you debate it, thats a fucking lot off a 5F normal. but enough about bang...people need to get over him. I just watched litchi do a 4k combo on tager...did pole super for free mix up that lead into 4k and repeated until he died. she is far worse than bang...by a stupid margin. at least bang can't do that to people. anyways ragna vs tao anyone?
Dacidbro Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 It's not that much if you bring Litchi in. She gets ~4k without meter and wakeup oki super off her 5A. I keep telling people, if they're going to bitch about Bang, bitch about the right things. His command grab rapid combos are fucking stupid, his Dnails are too strong, poison nail dash is too good of an approach, and his normals are unreal.
Ssuusshhii Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Last I checked, Bang's 5A only leads to something like 3.7k without meter. With meter, it's like 1k more damage or something?
Dacidbro Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Without meter, it's generally 3k, because you want to hit them low enough to the ground to get oki. Alternatively, you can get 3.5kish with a poison nail finisher.
FunkyP Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 dacid 4.7k is close enough to 5k. no matter how you debate it, thats a fucking lot off a 5F normal. but enough about bang...people need to get over him. I just watched litchi do a 4k combo on tager...did pole super for free mix up that lead into 4k and repeated until he died. she is far worse than bang...by a stupid margin. at least bang can't do that to people. anyways ragna vs tao anyone? Litchi has to play somewhat higher risk than Bang does. Her defense is also weaker to Bang's by a good bit. Also Bang spins circles around the entire cast by a large margin, while the rest of the cast has it slightly easier fighting her.
Spirit Juice Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Bang is slightly better than Litchi in terms of match ups, but both are quite retarded for different reasons.
Dacidbro Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Bang is slightly better than Litchi in terms of match ups, but both are quite retarded for different reasons. I disagree. This match up chart is terrible, it has Arakune in low tier, and I haven't heard from anywhere that Bang is better than Litchi.
Dacidbro Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Litchi has to play somewhat higher risk than Bang does. Her defense is also weaker to Bang's by a good bit. Also Bang spins circles around the entire cast by a large margin, while the rest of the cast has it slightly easier fighting her. What? Higher risk? She has a zoning game that makes half the cast approach, and the other half that has a better zone game has to avoid random CH's and the most godlike pokes of any character, most of which lead into 4+k damage. Her defense is also STRONGER than Bang's, having a legitimate no meter DP that is hard to punish for many characters.
Afrikaan Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 What? Higher risk? She has a zoning game that makes half the cast approach, and the other half that has a better zone game has to avoid random CH's and the most godlike pokes of any character, most of which lead into 4+k damage. Her defense is also STRONGER than Bang's, having a legitimate no meter DP that is hard to punish for many characters. I'm not completely sure of Litchi>>>Bang in definsive means. Bang does have good guard points on his drives, Ashura is COMPELTELY SAFE on block (This is one of the dumbest things in the game IMHO) and a great reversal, and of course, IB 5A is always an option. All Litchi really has is Tsubame Gaieshi in terms of a defensive reversal or Pierce straight or whatever it's called guardpoint. Not to mention Bang is a fucking Tank at the 3rd most health in the game.
Dacidbro Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Ashura is pretty dumb, but it does cost 50 meter and puts you in block on HIT. So it's not as bad as lamented. On whiff it can still be punished by probably half the cast, particularly the top tier. If you're a character that can't punish it, let Bang burn the meter. It's extremely short horizontal range, so if you space well it's much less threatening and it is inherently less effective as a blockstring reversal. Bang's drives are gimmicky. 6D loses to overheads, grabs and mashing, 2D and 5D aren't active immediately and lose to lows and grabs. Daifunka is 17 frames start up so it won't catch jabs and most B's, and is unbelievably unsafe on block. IB 5A is good, but I need a 5 frame gap, meaning their followup has to be quite slow.
Spirit Juice Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 I disagree. This match up chart is terrible, it has Arakune in low tier, and I haven't heard from anywhere that Bang is better than Litchi. B tier is not low tier. lol~ C tier isn't even low tier. This was a JP match up chart from Januarary, and I doubt top tier's match ups have worsened. Arakune probably moved up. Other than that, the game hasn't changed much at all. Bang still might be leading in match ups. Yeah, it's been a long time since we've heard of any kind of "official" info from either Arcadia or JBBS, but the game has, more or less, plateud in terms of evolution.
Dacidbro Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 It had Ara in C, and the most recent list from Japan I've seen had him in A. That's pretty big. And in CS, I consider C low tier, because when a character is C tier in this game they have 65-35's with every good character, usually.
Afrikaan Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 B tier is not low tier. lol~ C tier isn't even low tier. This was a JP match up chart from Januarary, and I doubt top tier's match ups have worsened. Arakune probably moved up. Other than that, the game hasn't changed much at all. Bang still might be leading in match ups. Yeah, it's been a long time since we've heard of any kind of "official" info from either Arcadia or JBBS, but the game has, more or less, plateud in terms of evolution. Praise the lord for adding 4 new characters and a balance patch all within the next 6 months. Right, Right?
huey253 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 ashura is punishable on block, and litchi is much more worse than bang lololol
Afrikaan Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 ashura is punishable on block, and litchi is much more worse than bang lololol Heavily depends on what character you are.
huey253 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 its punishable on normal block if its used super meaty and assuming you have a 5 frame jab. its punishable on instant block by the whole cast. it would probably be better to just say that it is really hard to punish on block
A.X.I.S. Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Heavily depends on what character you are. I have seen tagers beat bangs on occasion. but only 2 times have I seen tager beat a litchi...she zones him and fishes for CH's all day that leads into 4k. even lambda looks less dumb for tager than litchi. and I swear carl vs tager looks 6-4...the shit that happens to carl is fucking golden. you know what I just realized? the bang players are complaining about litchi...
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