Dacidbro Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 wow dacid your dumb. all I'm saying is that its not assured that the first thing he's gonna do is j.C. this isn't theory fighter, you just can't block. And neither can Japan, what's your point
mAc Chaos Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 I should've saved that match with you Coopa where I blocked all those bugs and lows and highs and crossups, that's probably never gonna happen again. :P It's just as difficult from Hakumen's side though, you might have to watch out for stuff, but if I miss one block while cursed then the round is over, no matter if you're at 1% or if I'm at 90%. It's a matchup that balances on a knifepoint I guess.
Coopadaddy Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Yea, I would agree with that, the thing it seems to be with hakumen though, is that I have to be EXTREMELY careful trying to find an opening during curse. I would say that Hakumen is the one character that is(of course at a disadvantage) but at least as SOME options during curse. Whereas with a lot of characters they are forced to sit there and block and hopefully not have their primers broken. I mean, I am not saying the matchup is unfair by any means, but I would say it is in Hakumen's favor perhaps 6-4 nothing more though.
FlyingVe Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Dacid is absolutely right on this one. Yes you can block the ambiguous cross up, but with all the crap going on the screen during fever, and the fact that you have to be ready for the countless other options Arakune has to mix you up while cursed. You gonna get hit by something, even if it isn't good on it's own. Hopefully you can hold off the hit for long enough that he doesn't have enough curse to 12k you. Even then, he'll end his loop in a way that fills you up to 50%.
Yggjrasil Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Well yeah of course, Dacid's right about this one, He's played with/against CopperDabbit almost on a daily basis, he should know Arakune very well by now. >.>
Dacidbro Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Here's the real kicker. Dabbit doesn't even do the complex mix, and I can't block it perfect. Japan blocks the simpler stuff, but the complex stuff goes untouched. When Dabbit brings in the better mix, it's going to be a sad day for me.
ryokoalways Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Arakune gets 100% meter off 3 reliable starters, which isn't always available due to positioning. The others only work if the opponent isn't patient and falls for a frame trap. A few others require 50% meter, which will only happen after arakune either got curse already, or for some reason the other guy decide to feed him IB meter. Characters that have a major design weakness will never make top tier, as that weakness shifts all match-ups down. Arakune has only 2 match-ups that are against him, but many are also 5:5, with the 5-6 advantageous ones no higher than 5.5 on most (there were either 1-2 that are 6:4). Just as it can be said that good Arakune players will be able to find the opening to land a 100% curse, other top players will be able to space correctly to make it significantly more difficult. Again, don't blow his "unblockable" IKO curse mode out of proportion. That's not the only phase of the game. Other players aren't retarded to the point to being unable to prevent it from happening.
Dacidbro Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Until Arksys balances air grab > 100% curse, he is high tier. Imo. Hopefully they will upgrade other aspects of his game while nerfing his instant curses, so he is a more exciting character.
A.X.I.S. Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 And neither can Japan, what's your point japan can block better than you.
Coopadaddy Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Until Arksys balances air grab > 100% curse, he is high tier. Imo. Hopefully they will upgrade other aspects of his game while nerfing his instant curses, so he is a more exciting character. When you say nerfing his instant curses, just to clarify, you still feel that he should be able to get 100% from a 5c or 2c FC, righttttt?
STenSatsu Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Assuming his curse mode went untouched, he probably shouldn't be able to 100% curse off anything without some RCing at least. I doubt Arc would do a balance patch and not fix the damage though. Getting 16 seconds of near perma-blockstun to mixup during and free guard break if you want is good enough to warrant not being able to kill somebody instantly.
ryokoalways Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 The only change that can be easily argued is that when Arakune is getting comboed, the curse meter should decrease normally, not at a lesser rate. I don't get the purpose of giving that perk to Arakune.
Dacidbro Posted August 8, 2010 Posted August 8, 2010 Yes, coopa, I agree that fatals should be 100. And I completely agree there too ryo. There's no incentive to push buttons in curse mode unless you can kill ara, which is stupid.
soujiro seta Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 I would definitely say ara is S tier. He doesn't have to one shot kill you, the fact that even when he doesn't you are left with 5% health, his guage is 60% full, eating one more cloud or blocking 1 more bell bug or those things that he shoots out when he transforms into a plant put him back in curse mode is enough is retarted. Add that to the fact that if he really needs to deal some damage just to finish you off he could always go the guard break route. The only character that takes a while to crack is tager. Also the idea of 1 shot depends on the character you're using. As a carl main I've gotten 1 shot killed by several random aras, well I almost did but I ended using a burst. ITS NOT SITUATIONAL AT ALL, or i'm left with, like i said, 5% health with his guage 60%........you get the idea. Ara definitely needs tweaking. I also agree with ryo. Why doesn't his meter drain normally when you do actually take the risk to counter him and combo? It's so stupid cause like dacid said, the only time you even attempt is when you are sure it will kill him. Even a counter assault againt ara is risky cause you can get hit by some random bug. BTW am i the only one who calls his curse mode arakune phobia?
Leo7 Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 For what it's worth, from experience, it's harder to do cross-up j.C set-ups on Tager since his hitbox is so wide (you need to jump farther to get the cross-up).
whitevoid Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 After actually messing around with the match-up, I'm changing my opinion on Mu/Hazama to slight Hazama. Chains are faster than I remember. lol. And there is no reason why he can't be top 3 (i don't believe he is in any case), but having a design flaw doesn't really make a big difference. Unless if you just arbitrarily define top 3 as having "no design flaws" then yeah, sure for whatever that's worth. TBH, I'm thinking about just leaving S tier as Bang/Litchi, as no matter how good Ragna/Arakune are they aren't quite Bang/Litchi, and tossing them up to S tier is more just trying to come up with a vague range of power to define S then specifically relating them to being closer to Bang/Litchi than Carl/Hakumen, (i.e. they are closer in power to Carl/Hakumen then Bang/Litchi, so I keep them in A)
smooshman Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 After actually messing around with the match-up, I'm changing my opinion on Mu/Hazama to slight Hazama. Chains are faster than I remember. lol. And there is no reason why he can't be top 3 (i don't believe he is in any case), but having a design flaw doesn't really make a big difference. Unless if you just arbitrarily define top 3 as having "no design flaws" then yeah, sure for whatever that's worth. TBH, I'm thinking about just leaving S tier as Bang/Litchi, as no matter how good Ragna/Arakune are they aren't quite Bang/Litchi, and tossing them up to S tier is more just trying to come up with a vague range of power to define S then specifically relating them to being closer to Bang/Litchi than Carl/Hakumen, (i.e. they are closer in power to Carl/Hakumen then Bang/Litchi, so I keep them in A) this.... Ragna is closer to where Jin was in CT, he's even or better over most of the cast and is one of the only characters who can effectively face the S tier without getting destroyed, but has enough weaknesses to not just be some nuisance... you can feel a distinct difference in hope level when fighting Ragna compared to Litchi, Bang. Ragna feels beatable if you fight hard enough, Bang feels like a if I try my hardest I may get him 50%, and Litchi is a FUCKITIQUIT!!!!
whitevoid Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 They could be S-. I actually have changed my mind on the whole +/- system on tiers. I just don't see a point in breaking up a tier that would consist of 2-3 people. I mean, it's just 2-3 people. They are either S or they are not. I think it's okay to do it with A tier, but that's because there's like 6-9 characters in that tier, so it gives it a little bit more clarity. Creating a special sub-tier just for one character, seems nit-picky. But, feel free if you want to pick that nit. But I mean, S-, A+, S--, A and a quarter... I mean, it's hard enough to put meaningfully put characters into these vague classifications, we don't really need to go dissecting it any further than necessary.
FlyingVe Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 You divide tiers where a divide is present. Ragna is noticeably worse than the S tier (Bang and Litch), but noticeably better than the A tier (Carl and Haku) hence S-. Unless something has changed he fits better in his own tier than in any of the others. The Tier divides and letters aren't just for readability, they do mean something. On another note, when will Arcadia (or whoever) release another tier list? I'm pretty sure this one is outdated, and I'm curious what will change and how much.
Afrikaan Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 You divide tiers where a divide is present. Ragna is noticeably worse than the S tier (Bang and Litch), but noticeably better than the A tier (Carl and Haku) hence S-. Unless something has changed he fits better in his own tier than in any of the others. The Tier divides and letters aren't just for readability, they do mean something. On another note, when will Arcadia (or whoever) release another tier list? I'm pretty sure this one is outdated, and I'm curious what will change and how much. Best guess? They'll release one after the end of SBO.
Dacidbro Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 Ragna is actually maybe just as strong as Haku/Carl. It's hard to say. Carl might become S tier with the new combos/resets.
ZONG_one Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 Ragna is actually maybe just as strong as Haku/Carl. It's hard to say. Carl might become S tier with the new combos/resets. The new combos are cool. The resets have been around forever. And they're extremely situational, and require set up in advance. A+ if there is one? His hard to play match ups will remain as such, even with some cool new combos.
Dacidbro Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 A+ sounds right. I think his shit mobility keeps him from S.
ZONG_one Posted August 9, 2010 Posted August 9, 2010 DaT MoBiLiTIeZ MakEInGZ mE RaGErZ sOmETiMEz YO!. (Insert "my character needs a DP talk," for kicks.)
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