Spirit Juice Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Can you list a few? (Strictly for curiosity's sake.) Thinking now, all I can come up with is probably sparkbolt. I can't recall any off the top of my head, but I'd imagine any kind of move that launches high into the air or has a long ground bounce on hit would make it hard or impossible for Hazama to combo JH on trade.
FoxyAreku Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 lmfao I told you guys tsubaki is shit. she is bad as rachel...what a useless character. oh man I am gonna get hype over this. lol ragna is under ara, skye will flip when he see's this. I wouldn't be talking, Tager player. :P Not like there was any question Tsubaki was low tier, you act like this is some big discovery when she's never NOT been in the bottom of the barrel, her damage needs a serious buff. The list is decent, though Arakune should be higher.
smooshman Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 The list is decent, though Ragna should be higher. phykst seriously though, there's no matchup data for it.... so it's kind of hard to tell why characters are where they are. Like HTF Ragna is only 2 places above Jin.
STenSatsu Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Not really Tsubaki's damage, just her need to have 2+ charges to play a real game and her ass normals. (1 charge gives you a real dp, 2 gives you that and you can actually do damage.) Just imo anyway.
ZONG_one Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 That 4th guy's numbers make him a total douche, lol.
FoxyAreku Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Not really Tsubaki's damage, just her need to have 2+ charges to play a real game and her ass normals. (1 charge gives you a real dp, 2 gives you that and you can actually do damage.) Just imo anyway. Was order sol low tier in GG? I never kept up to date with those lists, but if he was then maybe it's more the charging playstyle then anything...
Zeromegaman Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 Was order sol low tier in GG? I never kept up to date with those lists, but if he was then maybe it's more the charging playstyle then anything... If I remember correctly he was B Tier along with Sol
Kazuki Slice Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 Was order sol low tier in GG? I never kept up to date with those lists, but if he was then maybe it's more the charging playstyle then anything... Well Order sol also had his heat burst that he could do during his charging, that knocked opponents away. Also, after uusing attacks that used bar, when you hit D, you get some bar back.
smooshman Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 If I remember correctly he was B Tier along with Sol in AC, in the previous ones he was pretty low IIRC. the thing is that a charge character is supposed to start bad, and then become good.... and since this relies on a charge system.... and they're generally a rushdown, so... the problem becomes that they have to be far away to charge, and have to be really close to fight. Not only that but HOS had ACTUAL knockdown time to charge. Tsubaki is just....bleh, charging is not really worth the risk, and her without charge sucks.... and her normals suck... she could do with HOS's action charge, or somekind of charge return on attacks... don't know too much about either character though, so it's a bit hard for me to say what she needs.
Errol Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I was curious what would happen if I took out the guy who seemed to be trolling the poll. Shifted things a little bit. The end of each line has , in order, the number of positions the character went up or down, the old average score, the difference from from the new average score, and the old tier. Bang: 5.0/5.5/5.0//5.0/5.0 = 25.5 = Average 5.1 = S (1st) == Old 5.1(+0) = S Litchi: 5.0/5.0/5.0//5.0/5.0 = 25.0 = Average 5.0 = S (2nd) == Old 5.0(+0) = S Hazama: 4.5/4.5/5.0//4.0/5.0 = 23.0 = Average 4.6 = A+ (3rd) == Old 4.3(+.3) = A+ Hakumen: 4.5/4.5/5.0//4.0/4.0 = 22.0 = Average 4.4 = A+ (3rd) == Old 4.3(+.1) = A+ Arakune: 4.0/4.5/4.0//4.0/4.0 = 20.5 = Average 4.1 = A (5th) +1 Old 3.9(+.2) = A Carl: 4.0/4.0/4.0//4.0/4.0 = 20.0 = Average 4.0 = A (6th) -1 Old 4.0(+0) = A Ragna: 4.0/4.0/4.0//4.0/4.0 = 20.0 = Average 4.0 = A (6th) +1 Old 3.8(+.2) = A Taokaka: 4.0/3.0/4.0//4.0/3.0 = 18.0 = Average 3.6 = B+ (8th) -1 Old 3.8(-.2) = A Jin: 3.0/4.0/4.0//3.0/4.0 = 18.0 = Average 3.6 = B+ (8th) +1 Old 3.3(+.3) = B+ Lambda: 3.0/3.0/4.0//3.0/3.0 = 16.0 = Average 3.2 = B (10th) == Old 3.0(+.2) = B Noel: 3.0/2.0/3.0//3.0/3.0 = 14.0 = Average 2.8 = C+ (11th) == Old 2.5(+.3) = C+ Tager: 3.0/3.0/2.0//2.0/2.0 = 12.0 = Average 2.4 = C+ (12th) == Old 2.2(+.2) = C Tsubaki: 2.0/2.0/2.0//2.0/2.0 = 10.0 = Average 2.0 = C (13th) == Old 1.8(+.2) = C Rachel: 2.0/2.0/1.0//2.0/2.0 = 9.0 = Average 1.8 = C (14th) +1 Old 1.8(+0) = C
smooshman Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I was curious what would happen if I took out the guy who seemed to be trolling the poll. so how is 5.5 not trolling? when the scale is 1-5.....
Spirit Juice Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 It looks about the same, to be honest. :/ A .1 or .2 difference isn't that great and not something worth changing. It probably wasn't even a troll; many players often overexaggerate the strength of some characters or even the characters they play. For example, Kubo's match up opinion for Sion in MBAC was pretty biased (almost all in her favor and quite heavily at that), and so was Ogawa's match up opinion for Eddie in GGAC.
FlyingVe Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I think its safe to assume that the "famous japanese players" are better than us and more knowledgable. It would be more productive if we talked about why they are ranked that way, rather than disagreeing with them.
Spirit Juice Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I think its safe to assume that the "famous japanese players" are better than us and more knowledgable. It would be more productive if we talked about why they are ranked that way, rather than disagreeing with them. Yes. It's usually better to look at things objectively, rather than subjectively.
Errol Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I just thought it'd be interesting to see what it did. I didn't expect any big changes, it really just shifted things a little bit. Couple characters going up or down half a tier, etc. And I removed the 4th because it seemed the most out of whack with the others' opinions. e.g. #1, #3, and #5 ranked the characters exactly in line with the averages. #6 placed them one differently (taokaka below jin). #2 was more different and had the 5.5 for Bang but didn't really bother me, figured he just felt strongly about it. troll or no troll, it was a bit of an outlier.
FlyingVe Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 ^No problem you at least presented something new and thought out. I was wondering, does anybody know why Lambda is so low? I know she isn't Nu, but I was under the impression that she was getting better and in the A-tier area.
Spirit Juice Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 ^No problem you at least presented something new and thought out. I was wondering, does anybody know why Lambda is so low? I know she isn't Nu, but I was under the impression that she was getting better and in the A-tier area. I'd say her max damage got better, but everything else is pretty much the same. Not enough to move her up past B tier area I guess.
Dacidbro Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 Interesting new list. I would like to see a more broad range of opinions, but definitely something to chew on. Most of my complaints with the original moved in the direction I thought needed, with a couple obvious wild cards that I don't really understand. Bang having a 5.5 vote is really funny, but not quite as funny as people taking it as a serious representation of Bang being better than Litchi (seriously fucking lol) Ragna is quite low for what I would expect, but in the land of defense, I understand completely. His matchups with the top tier aren't as good as they could be, and I would say he quite often comes out even with a lot of the midish tiers. Interesting, regardless.
crazycrackers Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I'd say her max damage got better, but everything else is pretty much the same. Not enough to move her up past B tier area I guess. Agreed, though IMO Lambda and Jin should switch spots. Though its just a minor kink I guess.
whitevoid Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 JP BBS came out with a revised tier list a couple of days ago. They took 6 famous players (this means top players) and told them to give a character a ranking between 5 and 1, 5 is the highest, 1 is the lowest. After adding up all their scores, the total score determines the rank. The poster did not reveal the names/handles of the players. The votes where originally ordered differently - for convenience sake I listed them in order of strength as well. Also note that there are a couple of ties (specifically Hakumen/Hazama, Ragna/Tao, Tsubaki/Rachel). S: Bang Litchi A+: Hazama Hakumen A: Carl Arakune Ragna Taokaka B+: Jin B: Lambda C+: Noel C: Tager Tsubaki Rachel -------- Actual votes (excuse my godlike formatting) (koogy feelin himself damn ) S: 5 points, A: 4 points, B: 3 points, C: 2 points, D: 1 point, "+": 0.5 point Bang: 5.0/5.5/5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0 = 30.5 = Average 5.1 = S (1st) Litchi: 5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0 = 30.0 = Average 5.0 = S (2nd) Hazama: 4.5/4.5/5.0/3.0/4.0/5.0 = 26.0 = Average 4.3 = A+ (3rd) Hakumen: 4.5/4.5/5.0/4.0/4.0/4.0 = 26.0 = Average 4.3 = A+ (3rd) Carl: 4.0/4.0/4.0/4.0/4.0/4.0 = 24.0 = Average 4.0 = A (5th) Arakune: 4.0/4.5/4.0/3.0/4.0/4.0 = 23.5 = Average 3.9 = A (6th) Ragna: 4.0/4.0/4.0/3.0/4.0/4.0 = 23.0 = Average 3.8 = A (7th) Taokaka: 4.0/3.0/4.0/5.0/4.0/3.0 = 23.0 = Average 3.8 = A (7th) Jin: 3.0/4.0/4.0/2.0/3.0/4.0 = 20.0 = Average 3.3 = B+ (9th) Lambda: 3.0/3.0/4.0/2.0/3.0/3.0 = 18.0 = Average 3.0 = B (10th) Noel: 3.0/2.0/3.0/1.0/3.0/3.0 = 15.0 = Average 2.5 = C+ (11th) Tager: 3.0/3.0/2.0/1.0/2.0/2.0 = 13.0 = Average 2.2 = C(12th) Tsubaki: 2.0/2.0/2.0/1.0/2.0/2.0 = 11.0 = Average 1.8 = C (13th) Rachel: 2.0/2.0/1.0/2.0/2.0/2.0 = 11.0 = Average 1.8 = C (13th) Take this how you will. I can agree to that. Lambda surprises me, but overall I'm not all that surprised. If anyone had to fall out of A tier in my eyes, it would have been Lambda anyways. My opinion essentially the fifth player's opinion. And he is clearly the best out of all of them.
whitevoid Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I just thought it'd be interesting to see what it did. I didn't expect any big changes, it really just shifted things a little bit. Couple characters going up or down half a tier, etc. And I removed the 4th because it seemed the most out of whack with the others' opinions. e.g. #1, #3, and #5 ranked the characters exactly in line with the averages. #6 placed them one differently (taokaka below jin). #2 was more different and had the 5.5 for Bang but didn't really bother me, figured he just felt strongly about it. troll or no troll, it was a bit of an outlier. If you want to remove outliers the actual statistical way to do it is to remove the top and bottom scores regardless of whom it came from. I actually did that, and was going to post it, but the list didn't really change all that much. The order was still the same, but I believe Tao fell to B tier (15 and needed 16) and Noel was put to B tier. Or actually, she was 11 and she needed 12 so she was still in C.
Leonil_Requiem Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 S - Bang Litchi A - Hakumen Arakune Hazama A- - Ragna Taokaka Carl B - Lambda Jin Noel C - Tager Tsubaki Rachel I revised it a little, i forgot generally later do mean certain things, so i lower the large gaps in the tier and reviewed some of the finer flaws withing the A- character. also big thanks to Dacidbro and Lord Knight
atdsutm Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 Not really Tsubaki's damage, just her need to have 2+ charges to play a real game and her ass normals. (1 charge gives you a real dp, 2 gives you that and you can actually do damage.) Just imo anyway. this, tsubaki doesnt really have problems in dealing damage or having effective options when she has 2-3 charges. its just that getting charges in an actual game is difficult, at best you at least get 2 and that even assumes that you actually comboed an opponent once or twice. She needs a faster charge buff.
Klaige Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 Hazama just seems too high to me there. I could see putting him on an even level with Ragna now that people understand Ragna's pressure gaps a little bit better (though i personally still think ragna is a tad better just from bnb damage and his mixup game). But no way would i put Hazama one step below bang and litchi, and definitely not above hakumen or arakune. I think you could make an arguement for carl going above him too. Then again this is a different type of tier list so given those factors i'm not totally shocked with the outcome.
Afrikaan Posted August 18, 2010 Posted August 18, 2010 I'd say her max damage got better, but everything else is pretty much the same. Not enough to move her up past B tier area I guess. I'd say it's because her damage on random hits is pretty darn low, even for a zoner, and requires very specific setups to get damage comparable to the rest of the cast. Sure, she shouldn't get 5K from across the screen, but damn topping out at 1.5ishK off a 5D assuming non counter hit or 2ishK off a 6/2DD into aerial feels bad man. Plus her normals got gutted to an extent.
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